Universalism and Tradition?

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What TNT is railing against has nothing to do with Apokatastasis, but has to do with opposition to an opinion held by St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross which asserts that “it possible to hope that God’s omnipotent love finds ways of, so to speak, outwitting human resistance.” [Cardinal Avery Dulles, http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=488”]*First Things, *“The Population of Hell” ]
 
Notice here that Pax et Caritas is describing several things specifically mentioned by Pope Pius XII that ***would be wrong:

You seem to have left out Pius XII’s qualifyer “indescriminately.” The Vicar of Christ lawfully approved the liturgical norms, and did so discriminately.
 
Furthermore, in my parish…
  1. We do not have tables, but altars
  2. Black is a liturgical color
  3. We have pictures and statues in our churches
  4. We have a larger than life crucifix which depicts Christ suffering
And we do so in accord with current liturgical norms. 👍

Nonetheless, if you’d like to debate this further, perhaps you can start a thread more applicable to that topic.
 
Furthermore, in my parish…
  1. We do not have tables, but altars
  2. Black is a liturgical color
  3. We have pictures and statues in our churches
  4. We have a larger than life crucifix which depicts Christ suffering
And we do so in accord with current liturgical norms. 👍

Nonetheless, if you’d like to debate this further, perhaps you can start a thread more applicable to that topic.
Dave,

So one would not be wrong in asserting that free-standing altars, in and of themselves, are not wrong?

And on the Servant of God Pope Pius XII’s remarks on the Crucifix, there isn’t really a firm standard, is there? The Crucifix of San Damiano, ie., St. Francis’ Crucifix could be legitimately prefered to another that is more realistic, by a parish or an individual?
 
JKirk:
And on the Servant of God Pope Pius XII’s remarks on the Crucifix, there isn’t really a firm standard, is there?
As I read about traditionists anxieties throughout the forum that the crucifix is replaced by the risen Christ, I often wonder if those who object to the latter would only pray the sorrowful mysteries of the rosary, and omit the glorious. It may help them to read Spirit of the Liturgy, by Joseph Ratzinger:
Every image of Christ must contain these three essential aspects of the mystery of Christ and, in this sense, must be an image of Easter. At the same time, it goes without saying that different emphases are possible. The image may give more prominence to the Cross, the Passion, and in the Passion to the anguish of our own life today, or again it may bring the Resurrection or the Second Coming to the fore. But whatever happens, one aspect can never be completely isolated from another, and in the different emphases the Paschal Mystery as a whole must be plainly evident.
An image of the Crucifixion no longer transparent to Easter would be just as deficient as an Easter image forgetful of the wounds and the suffering of the present moment. And, centered as it is on the Paschal Mystery, the image of Christ is always an icon of the Eucharist, that is it points to the sacramental presence of the Easter Mystery.
 
St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross which asserts that “it possible to hope that God’s omnipotent love finds ways of, so to speak, outwitting human resistance.” [Cardinal Avery Dulles, http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=488”]*First Things, *“The Population of Hell”
]
Here’s an excerpt from St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, which asserts that one can indeed maintain the hope that God’s grace does indeed find ways of outwitting human resistance. Thus, one can piously have hope that Jesus can and does “lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of mercy.”
All-merciful love can thus descend to everyone. We believe that it does so. And now, can we assume that there are souls that remain perpetually closed to such love? As a possibility in principle, this cannot be rejected. In reality, it can become infinitely improbable–precisely through what preparatory grace is capable of effecting in the soul… [the soul] follows this inner prompting, then subjects itself implicitly to this rule of grace. It is possible that it will not do this…
The more that grace wins ground from the things that had filled the soul before it, the more it repels the effects of the acts directed against it. And to this process of displacement there are, in principle, no limits. If all the impulses opposed to the spirit of light have been expelled from the soul, then any free decision against this has become infinitely improbable. Then faith in the unboundedness of divine love and grace also justifies *hope for the universality of redemption, *although, through the possibility of resistance to grace that remains open in principle, the possibility of eternal damnation also persists… Human freedom can be neither broken nor neutralized by divine freedom, but it may well be, so to speak, outwitted."
[St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, cited by Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar, *Dare We Hope “That all Men be Saved”?,
(San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), p. 219-221, citing St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, *World and Person. A contribution to Christian truth seeking, *ed. by L. Gelber and Romaeus Leuven, O.C.D. (Freiburg, 1962), pp. 158ff.)]
 
You seem to have left out Pius XII’s qualifyer “indescriminately.” The Vicar of Christ lawfully approved the liturgical norms, and did so discriminately.
You seem to hold to the third position (I can’t tell if you read the whole post or not), but I indicated that:
it would be hard to admit that the Pope Pius XII said doing x, y, and z indiscriminately would be wrong, but doing x, y, and z discriminately would be right. It’s a stretch to try to make such justifications…and I think you know that.
Towhich, I guess it isn’t that hard for you to make such a stretch…I stand corrected.

In closing I would say that while the The Vicar of Christ did lawfully approve (or look the other way on enforcement of old traditions) the liturgical norms here in question (that were warned against by Pius XII), I have no way of knowing the level of discrimination in making such a decision - though I’m sure it was done with the best of intentions. Optimism was not lacking in the late Pontiff.

Further, said approval does not carry with it a guarranty of - as Pius XII spoke of - wisdom and praisworthiness. You seem to foster on the pope a level of impeccability and infallibility in prudential decision-making that we are constantly telling our protester friends we don’t believe him to have.

And we wonder where they get such crazy notions when we can’t even admit obvious difficulties like the one we’re discussing.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 

John Paul II likewise affirmed:
Quote:
***hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return *** General Audience, 28 July 1999]
But Dave, in the same Audience he goes on to say:
“Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.”

Surely “whether…human beings are effectively involved in it.”
is known that humans are even from Scripture to say nothing of all the Fathers & Saints.
 
TNT,

The OP asked a question whether it was permissible to hold to universalism. That has been answered. In beginning a discussion of John Paul II’s purported errors, you have gone overboard to prove a point and hijacked the thread without need.

I looked at your many references to his “heresy” and noted that you did not personally get this from reading other sites, but sought the info yourself as the search results indicate in your posts. What is it you want the reader to believe, pray tell us?

And why are you so adamant about this pope, when the current Pope Benedict has stated the very same thing?? It is a a belief and teaching of all popes and the Church, yet for some reason you are steadfast in citing writings of Pope John Paul as though he were in error and you seem to have a fetish about it.
Last Friday we celebrated the Solemnity of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, a devotion that is deeply rooted in the Christian people. In biblical language, “heart” indicates the centre of the person where his sentiments and intentions dwell. In the Heart of the Redeemer we adore God’s love for humanity, his will for universal salvation, his infinite mercy.
 
TNT,
The OP asked a question whether it was permissible to hold to universalism. That has been answered.
Yes, by me in Post 13.

In beginning a discussion of John Paul II’s purported errors, you have gone overboard to prove a point and hijacked the thread without need.

If I HJ’d the thread, I think the moderators are competent to address it.

…And why are you so adamant about this pope, …
If you have another pope who has referenced the phrase of “universal salvation” (U.S.) more than JPII, I’ll take a look.
The question was on U.S.
I stated the Origen case, the condemnation, and then any further recent popes who addressed U.S.

JPII was by far the greatest user of that term.

Thus the exceptional attention he gave it was referenced.
I have yet to use the word “heresy”, or any other derogative to JPII, unless you found one; what is YOUR point?
Is it that I should not quote the head of the church when he has spoken on U.S. ?
 
…The question was on U.S.
The question was on universal restoration (apokatastasis). I don’t think you are paying very close attention.

Observe…
Is it heresy to hold restitutio in pristinum statum (i.e. restoration to the original condition)?
“Greek, apokatastasis; Latin, restitutio in pristinum statum, restoration to the original condition” (Catholic Encyclopedia - Apocatastasis).

As for the hope that Jesus can lead ALL souls to heaven, it is a pious hope which has nothing to do with the condemnation of apokatastasis.
 
JUSTDAVE:
Thus, one can piously have hope that Jesus can and does “lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of mercy.”
Just a point:
“Oh my Jesus, Forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy”

is a daily repeated prayer of mine & framed on the wall…the whole prayer.

Of course, universalism is not about HOPE, but the lack of need for it.
 
The question was on universal restoration (apokatastasis). I don’t think you are paying very close attention.

Observe…

“Greek, apokatastasis; Latin, restitutio in pristinum statum, ** Universalism and Tradition?**” (Catholic Encyclopedia - Apocatastasis).
Come now, Dave,
The TITLE of this thread IS:
** Universalism** and Tradition?
“universal restoration” is WHAT then?
If not relating back to the TITLE of the Thread?
 
Come now, Dave,
The TITLE of this thread IS:
** Universalism** and Tradition?
“universal restoration” is WHAT then?
If not relating back to the TITLE of the Thread?
It seems clear from the first post what the topic is, your off-topic rant notwithstanding.
 
JUSTDAVE:
… Of course, universalism is not about HOPE, but the lack of need for it.
I don’t think you even come close to understanding this ancient heresy, championed by Origen.
 
The fact is, while we know it’s possible to end up eternally in Hell, we don’t know how many people are in Hell. It could be no one or it could be everyone but the canonized saints. God doesn’t tell us for a reason. If he told us close to everyone went to heaven, we would be tempted to presumption. If he told us close to everyone went to Hell, we would fall into despair over ourselves and loved ones. If he gave us a set number, it would become a competition and we wouldn’t want to help others reach Heaven. But, since we don’t know at all, we don’t have to be presumptuous, despairing, or competitive, but rather hopeful and charitable. 🙂
 
Come now, Dave,
The TITLE of this thread IS:
** Universalism** and Tradition?
“universal restoration” is WHAT then?
If not relating back to the TITLE of the Thread?
Your implication is that John Paul II taught the condemned doctrine of Universalism. However, the quotes you provided describe no such thing.

John Paul II is using the word “universal” in the sense which means “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” He has neither omitted or asserted each and every person will attain everlasting salvation. Where you see “universal” replace it with the Greek word “kata holos” or “catholic” and you may see what he is saying in a different light.

In his general audience message, he stated that hell is eternal. Thus, he is not teaching anything contrary to de fide dogmas or that which was condemned by the Church, that is the Origenist teaching of apokatastasis, your weak attempt to link the two notwithstanding. Instead, he is speaking of “universal salvation” in the sense that Christ brings salvation to the whole world, to Jews and Gentiles. Within the same general audience address, he certainly leaves open the thesis affirmed by Catholic theologian Fr. Hans Urs Von Balthasar and held by St. Teresa Benedicta the Cross that we may indeed hope for the salvation of all souls. This thesis is clearly NOT heretical nor even condemned by the Church. Moreover, Cardinal Avery Dulles called this thesis “orthodox.”
 
Your implication is that John Paul II taught the condemned doctrine of Universalism. However, the quotes you provided describe no such thing.

John Paul II is using the word “universal” in the sense which means “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” He has neither omitted or asserted each and every person will attain everlasting salvation. Where you see “universal” replace it with the Greek word “kata holos” or “catholic” and you may see what he is saying in a different light.

In his general audience message, he stated that hell is eternal. Thus, he is not teaching anything contrary to de fide dogmas or that which was condemned by the Church, that is the Origenist teaching of apokatastasis, your weak attempt to link the two notwithstanding. Instead, he is speaking of “universal salvation” in the sense that Christ brings salvation to the whole world, to Jews and Gentiles. Within the same general audience address, he certainly leaves open the thesis affirmed by Catholic theologian Fr. Hans Urs Von Balthasar and held by St. Teresa Benedicta the Cross that we may indeed hope for the salvation of all souls. This thesis is clearly NOT heretical nor even condemned by the Church. Moreover, Cardinal Avery Dulles called this thesis “orthodox.”
This “hope”, in my opinion, is extremely dangerous. Why would I say that? Why is it wrong to merely “hope” that all men will be saved?

Because, for one, the church has always taught, and has defined infallibly, that outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation; and thus that heretics, pagans, Jews etc. will all go to hell.

Now, if we “hope” that all men are saved, we thereby undermine what the Church has taught us, and turn the doctrine extra ecclesia nullo salus, “into a meaningless formula” as Pope Pius XII warned that some were doing.

Furthermore, our Lord specifically states that many are called and few chosen; that many will seek to enter in and shall not be able (Mt 7); that of his apostles He lost none “except the son of perdition” (Judas); that, on the last day, those on his left will be “cast into the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt. 25).

These and many other statements of our Lord teach that, indeed, many souls will go to hell. If we “hope” that some souls do not go to hell, we implicitly hope that our Lord was deceiving us; and that He has deceived the Church for 1960 years. And if He deceived the hierarchy on this point, why not on other points.

Itsjustdave, out of true charity for you I am going to say this. You may not listen, or even car what I am going to say, but I am going to say it nevertheless: I read your profile and saw that you are working towards a masters is religious studies. I “hope” not, but fear that you may have placed yourself under the tutelage of some less than orthodox Catholics. How could it be otherwise in the days in which we live.

I wonder of any of your teachers have taught, or spoken highly of, or at least defended, the proposition that we should “hope” that all men are saved. Is that why you now defend this “hope” that’s contrary to 1960 years of Catholic teaching? Is that why you are on the wrong side of this issue, and are defending this novel “hope”?

My advise to you is this: Beware! How many priest and Bishops have lost the faith over the past 40 years due in large part to heretical instructors. You too are a mere man and should be very careful.

Now, your pride will probably kick in at this point and you will probably go after me for giving you this warning, but if you were wise you would heed it.

Anyone who takes courses in Catholic higher education in this day of doctrinal confusion and liberal disorientationj should be extremely wary, especially of anything that is contrary to what the Church has always taught - not just de fide dogmas, but all of the common teachings of the Church down through the ages.
 
Unbelievable! In your “charity” you publicly insinuate that Dave is unorthodox and prideful. Doesn’t Jesus teach us to go privately to the person? There is a P.M. system on this forum.

Guess what, though, my man, it is YOU who do not know your faith. It is a teaching of the Church, notably in #847 of the CCC, that many do attain salvation, including Jews and pagans. You need to study up.
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
As for “hope?” Surely you old Baltimore Catechism lovers must appreciate the Prayer for Hope:

“O my God, relying on Thy infinite goodness and promises, I hope to attain the pardon of my sins, the help of Thy grace, and life everlasting.” Hope is a theological virtue, one of the basic three that are absolutely necessary.
 
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