University of Stanford Shows that Book of Mormon......

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Are there any characters in the early/founding Mormon church that have been identified as 'good and holy men"?
LOL Only the most naive followers. And they fell away with the exposure of polygamy.

If you google for the whole Jockers article, you may find it somewhere. Several months ago I found it on a Canadian university website. Otherwise, you can order it through the Interlibrary Loan department of your local university or public library.

I am not opposed to those who believe in Smith only as author of the BoM. However, they tend to be in the evangelical Protestant camp, and some of them fall into the Joseph + Satan trap. The BoM is multi-textured, and there are obvious differences in style between the books before Mosiah and the rest of the BoM. This is because the first part of the book had been lost, and I and II Nephi and Jacob were written as replacements. And those impressive stylistic differences can then be explained by plagiarism. They were using Spalding’s manuscript, and no longer had access to it (having returned it to Spalding’s widow?) when they were re-writing the beginning of the book.

The BoM was written in 1828-1829. Spalding died in 1816.
 
Are there any characters in the early/founding Mormon church that have been identified as 'good and holy men"?
Are you intending this as a response to my post? If so, I must not have expressed it sufficiently. For one things, Mormons would answer “Yes” to that question easily. There were people who lived and died following Joseph Smith and who sacrificed their own self-interest for the sake of his teachings. They took care of their families and followed their moral principles.

But my point here is not just that there can only be one “bad guy.” My point is that if the LDS Church is a fraud, it is a fraud of astonishing evil. This is most evident precisely from the sufferings that Smith’s faithful followers endured. When Mormon blood started getting spilled in Missouri - including the murders of nine and ten-year-olds - Smith had to decide at that point to press on with his mission, and there is no discernible sign that his conscience was affected by that decision. If he was prophet, then he did the right thing. If not, it reveals something very dark in his soul, for it shows that Smith considered the deaths of these people, though not his own doing, to be an acceptable price to pay for achieving his fraudulent ends. He didn’t kill, but he was willing to accept casualties. If you combine that with the level of mendacity that would have been necessary to fabricate the BOM in the first place, it is hard to avoid concluding that here we have a straight-up sociopath on our hands. If we don’t accept Smith as a prophet, that is our other option.

But conspiracy theories fall into problems at this point, because attributing to Smith an uncommon degree of wickedness makes it less likely that he would have accomplices. In the first place, not many people are that evil. More importantly, anyone who worked with him in writing the book would, for that reason, have had power over him. They could have pressured Smith to do what they wanted by saying, “I can expose you,” and has time passed and things got out of hand, they would have found their consciences pricked to do so. In any case, it would have created problems for Smith in consolidating power that he does not seem to have had.

Now Mormons never make the argument I just gave you, probably because entertaining the possibility of sociopathy on Smith’s part is not an idea they want to foster. I don’t blame them for that, or expect them to just agree with me here. Yet it is worth pointing out that the possibility does need to be taken seriously for the historical probabilities related to Mormon origins to be fairly weighed. I think a lot of Mormon arguments to the effect that “If the Church were untrue, Smith would not have done such and such” are only persuasive if one underestimates to capacity of antisocial personalities to behave in ways that radically defy our rational expectations. This is something that anti-Mormon arguments also need to take into account. I do not think that composite theories of BOM authorship do so.
 
You seem to be arguing from both camps at the same time. I present two questions to you. If Joseph Smith was severely sociopathic, how would you describe Brigham Young?

Do you believe that Sidney Rigdon had influence over him until the last? He had the theological knowledge that JS did not have. Are you aware that JS tried to take Nancy Rigdon (S.R.'s daughter) as a concubine, and father and daughter both said no?

As much a con artist as JS was, he did not have the knowledge to write the BoM. He had to have help. His education was minimal. That is why he used scribes, and why the writings we have, in his own handwriting, were so bad.
 
It is hard to give any comment on this article, because your link goes only to an abstract, so we can’t evaluate the actual arguments given. While I have no good opinion of the BOM, I doubt that the Spaulding hypothesis is a winner, and a lot of Mormon apologists have done good work showing its weaknesses.

Ah, so you have no factual reason to dispute the study, you just thenk the apologists wrote well. I have a question, are you truly Catholic? I only ask because you seem to defend LDS a lot and the name Soren looks to be short for Sorenson, a fairly common LDS name
 
Are you intending this as a response to my post? If so, I must not have expressed it sufficiently. For one things, Mormons would answer “Yes” to that question easily. There were people who lived and died following Joseph Smith and who sacrificed their own self-interest for the sake of his teachings. They took care of their families and followed their moral principles.

But my point here is not just that there can only be one “bad guy.” My point is that if the LDS Church is a fraud, it is a fraud of astonishing evil. This is most evident precisely from the sufferings that Smith’s faithful followers endured. When Mormon blood started getting spilled in Missouri - including the murders of nine and ten-year-olds - Smith had to decide at that point to press on with his mission, and there is no discernible sign that his conscience was affected by that decision. If he was prophet, then he did the right thing. If not, it reveals something very dark in his soul, for it shows that Smith considered the deaths of these people, though not his own doing, to be an acceptable price to pay for achieving his fraudulent ends. He didn’t kill, but he was willing to accept casualties. If you combine that with the level of mendacity that would have been necessary to fabricate the BOM in the first place, it is hard to avoid concluding that here we have a straight-up sociopath on our hands. If we don’t accept Smith as a prophet, that is our other option.

But conspiracy theories fall into problems at this point, because attributing to Smith an uncommon degree of wickedness makes it less likely that he would have accomplices. In the first place, not many people are that evil. More importantly, anyone who worked with him in writing the book would, for that reason, have had power over him. They could have pressured Smith to do what they wanted by saying, “I can expose you,” and has time passed and things got out of hand, they would have found their consciences pricked to do so. In any case, it would have created problems for Smith in consolidating power that he does not seem to have had.

Now Mormons never make the argument I just gave you, probably because entertaining the possibility of sociopathy on Smith’s part is not an idea they want to foster. I don’t blame them for that, or expect them to just agree with me here. Yet it is worth pointing out that the possibility does need to be taken seriously for the historical probabilities related to Mormon origins to be fairly weighed. I think a lot of Mormon arguments to the effect that “If the Church were untrue, Smith would not have done such and such” are only persuasive if one underestimates to capacity of antisocial personalities to behave in ways that radically defy our rational expectations. This is something that anti-Mormon arguments also need to take into account. I do not think that composite theories of BOM authorship do so.
Another possibility, other than the prophet-sociopath duality, is that Smith sincerely believed in his prophethood.
 
soren1;6695488:
It is hard to give any comment on this article, because your link goes only to an abstract, so we can’t evaluate the actual arguments given. While I have no good opinion of the BOM, I doubt that the Spaulding hypothesis is a winner, and a lot of Mormon apologists have done good work showing its weaknesses.

Ah, so you have no factual reason to dispute the study, you just thenk the apologists wrote well. I have a question, are you truly Catholic? I only ask because you seem to defend LDS a lot and the name Soren looks to be short for Sorenson, a fairly common LDS name
Soren is definitely Catholic. He posts at Mormon Apologetics Board with the same name, and is a Catholic apologist completing a graduate degree in Catholic theology if I remember correctly.
 
Another possibility, other than the prophet-sociopath duality, is that Smith sincerely believed in his prophethood.
Yes, it appears so. He was truly insane at the last. I think the King Follet Discourse illustrates that well. Once he shed Rigdon’s (liberal) guidance, he showed how truly off the deep end he was. And he began (as the first vision thread and documentation of folk magic shows) as a product of his environment.
 
Cool. Thanks Rebecca. I wonder where Jerusha is. I apologized to her. Oh, well, hypersensitive, I guess. 😃
 
thanks! Its interesting that Mormons claim that the multiple voices in the Book of Mormon are proof that it is what it claims to be, when it could also be that multiple modern authors wrote it as well. I’ve long thought that the Joseph Smith-only theory of authorship is untenable.
 
I don’t know about this article.

We have an Enlgish professor, a Statistics professor, and an Engineering professor attempting to analyze and discredit an alleged book of history/Theology.

I think some folks should stick to their own fields. Remember when that really famous biologist wrote about The God Delusion and Theologists and Philosophers across the world laughed at him and told him to go back to his laboratory?
The astonishingly ignorant thing about that particular study (of which I have read a synopsis that was available without paying for the entire study) is that they jump to conclusions using statistical comparisons such as length of sentences used, and use the words from Spaulding’s book and compare the length of those sentences with the average length of the sentences in the Book of Mormon, and use that to “prove” something about the authorship of the Book of Mormon. The incredible thing to me is that Stanford University (I wrote their public relations office about this poorly researched “study”–which didn’t even use the comparative writings of Joseph Smith himself, nor differentiated between the many different authors described in the Book of Mormon, nor analyzed their unique word prints and writing styles which any good English professor would do when bringing their background into such a study) would allow such a study to carry any association at all with their university. They said their professors could publish what they wanted to publish.

If they or anyone were to use that same approach to “prove” the authorship of the works of Shakespeare, they could come up with any number of authors depending on whom they wanted to “prove” was the true author of the Shakespearean writings. They could “prove” Ben Johnson was the author, or Edward De Vere (who I think was), or Christopher Marlowe, or Francis Bacon. Statistical word count analysis proves nothing.

Textual analysis is better, but falls short if in taking the words of the Book of Mormon, one doesn’t take into consideration that there are many authors whose word prints are distinct within the book itself. These are easily detected with a careful reading of the book, which the Stanford folks obviously did not have either the time or the interest to do.
 
Parker, here I am reminded of Rudyard Kipling:
OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!
We will never believe the same things. However, we both have the right to believe as we do, and not attempt to impose our beliefs on each other. Remember that Jockers and associates are working on an update of this study. Let’s be patient, and see how some of those issues will be addressed.

I do support further examination of the issues, like using Summa Theologica, Maccabees, and Clavigero to test for genre effects. Another approach would be to use this methodology using the most Spalding-like chapters, like Alma 52, to see what other chapters pop up as being similar. All the data is not yet in, but it is enough to convince me. Your investment in the issue predicts that there will never be enough to convince you.
And I can live with that, so long as you strive to be a decent human being.
 
You seem to be arguing from both camps at the same time. I present two questions to you. If Joseph Smith was severely sociopathic, how would you describe Brigham Young?

Do you believe that Sidney Rigdon had influence over him until the last? He had the theological knowledge that JS did not have. Are you aware that JS tried to take Nancy Rigdon (S.R.'s daughter) as a concubine, and father and daughter both said no?

As much a con artist as JS was, he did not have the knowledge to write the BoM. He had to have help. His education was minimal. That is why he used scribes, and why the writings we have, in his own handwriting, were so bad.
I am not arguing both sides at once. I am weighing alternative possibilities by considering the implications of contrary theses. The first thing anyone needs to do before arguing for any position is to consider what the implications of that position are and then to argue along lines consistent with those implications. Saying the BOM was a fraud implies certain claims about Smith’s personality, and a consistent rebuttal to Mormonism needs to take that fully into account. That is what I think that theories like the Spaulding hypothesis do not do.

As for Brigham Young, I think he was scrupulously loyal to Smith. He never spoke off the cuff, never fictionalized. That argues against taking him as a sociopath. The section of D&C in which God instructs the Mormons to move west seems fishy to me, but it is the only real evidence of fraud by Young that I can think of. In the absence of other evidence it might be explained in other ways.

I do not grant that anything in the Book of Mormon or the teachings of Joseph Smith represents a significant theological education or a profound understanding of important theological questions. Ignorance is in evidence at all points. I grant Rigdon influenced Smith, but did he exercise the kind of influence over him that I am describing above? Did he have bully power over Smith? I do know about Rigdon’s daughter, and she is not the only person who successfully resisted Smith. He did not force his way into his polygamous relationships. If Rigdon had contributed to the authorship of the BOM, we should expect him to exercise far more power throughout the term of Smith’s life than appears to be the case.
 
Textual analysis is better, but falls short if in taking the words of the Book of Mormon, one doesn’t take into consideration that there are many authors whose word prints are distinct within the book itself. These are easily detected with a careful reading of the book, which the Stanford folks obviously did not have either the time or the interest to do.
This is speculation.

If LDS want to respond, they should repeat the study and publish the results. This would be the appropriate response. Why haven’t they?
 
As for Brigham Young, I think he was scrupulously loyal to Smith. He never spoke off the cuff, never fictionalized. That argues against taking him as a sociopath.
OOOHHHKKKAAAYYY. :rolleyes:

Never forced? If you call threatening with malicious gossip and death of relatives and loss of use of property not using force, I guess he didn’t use force. :confused:
 
OOOHHHKKKAAAYYY. :rolleyes:

Never forced? If you call threatening with malicious gossip and death of relatives and loss of use of property not using force, I guess he didn’t use force. :confused:
nono you’ve got it all wrong. Lack of obedience and worthiness is what leads to these things, not threats or use of force. :dancing:
 
SirThomasMore;6695698:
Soren is definitely Catholic. He posts at Mormon Apologetics Board with the same name, and is a Catholic apologist completing a graduate degree in Catholic theology if I remember correctly.
Cool…Was just curious. I knew a lot of Sorensons when I was LDS
 
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