University of Stanford Shows that Book of Mormon......

[why_me]

It does not look good for sidney as author as the information I provided demonstrates. What do you think Stevie?

 

[SirThomasMore]

Actually, this is not true at all. Critics are divided between two main camps: The Smith alone camp, meaning that Joseph Smith wrote the book of mormon alone. This group has set out to challenge the study. And then of course, the Sidney Rigdon camp. This group hails the study. However, it is becoming clear that the study has holes and the Smith alone camp are cherry picking the holes.

u huh…

you just made my point for me

 

[SirThomasMore]

I provided information about sidney rigdon denying that he wrote the book of mormon even on his deathbed to his son and to a methodist minister. His wife also denied that he wrote the book. Also, I have stated on other threads that the witnesses to the book of mormon never denied what they saw, many on their deathbeds testified to what they saw. And that is what makes mormonism so strong.

lol…yeah, because co-conspiratirs are SUCH honest people…

Now if Sidney would have on his deathbed provided his manucript complete with rough drafts of his work on the book of mormon…the lds church would today just be a footnote in american religious history. But no such luck. And likewise for the witnesses…if they would have provided a detailed account as to how the con was conceived etc. But…no such luck. All remained true to their claim.

Yes, all of them…people who Joseph, at one time or another, called dishonest. Hmmmmm…if they are dishonest, how much credibility do we give to there claims? If they aree honest, then Joe is a liar and a person who bears false witness. Which shall it be?

 

[why_me]

Yes, all of them…people who Joseph, at one time or another, called dishonest. Hmmmmm…if they are dishonest, how much credibility do we give to there claims? If they aree honest, then Joe is a liar and a person who bears false witness. Which shall it be?

Well, I don’t know. Sidney’s wife and children claimed he did not write the book. I am sure that the wife would know. I must take their word for it. Sorry, they were there and you were still in the preexistence waiting to come to earth…who should I believe…

And a side note: if I were one of the co-conspirators and Joseph was calling me a liar and dishonest…I would spill the beans for sure. I would be mad as heck…and I would show him for sure…but…all were silent…now isn’t that interesting.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Well, I don’t know. Sidney’s wife and children claimed he did not write the book. I am sure that the wife would know. I must take their word for it. Sorry, they were there and you were still in the preexistence waiting to come to earth…who should I believe…

And a side note: if I were one of the co-conspirators and Joseph was calling me a liar and dishonest…I would spill the beans for sure. I would be mad as heck…and I would show him for sure…but…all were silent…now isn’t that interesting.

Yeah, because the wife and kids would want their father to be known as a liar…

And on a side note…I would not…because I would be prosecuted and convicted and sued.

 

[why_me]

Yeah, because the wife and kids would want their father to be known as a liar…

And on a side note…I would not…because I would be prosecuted and convicted and sued.

If you say so. I think that we can put this conversation to rest. Sidney always denied that he wrote the book. And so did his wife and children. Now you are accusing his wife and kids of lying. Wonderful.

 

[why_me]

Yeah, because the wife and kids would want their father to be known as a liar…

And on a side note…I would not…because I would be prosecuted and convicted and sued.

And of course, on sidney’s deathbed, he again states that he didn’t write the book of mormon after his son asked him again. But according to tom, the son knew that his dad wrote the book of mormon.

Sidney would have been a hero if he came clean. Fear of prison is not an issue since he was in jail as a mormon and he was beaten as a mormon.

 

[SirThomasMore]

And of course, on sidney’s deathbed, he again states that he didn’t write the book of mormon after his son asked him again. But according to tom, the son knew that his dad wrote the book of mormon.

Sidney would have been a hero if he came clean. Fear of prison is not an issue since he was in jail as a mormon and he was beaten as a mormon.

You are simply not correct. Had Sidney ever come clean, his family would have been destroyed. You simply do not understand the law. Not that you should, as you have not been trained in the law. But none of the co-conspirators could have come clean. They risked far too much.

 

[why_me]

You are simply not correct. Had Sidney ever come clean, his family would have been destroyed. You simply do not understand the law. Not that you should, as you have not been trained in the law. But none of the co-conspirators could have come clean. They risked far too much.

So, for good measure they give their testimony on their deathbeds. When on their deathbed as they prepare to meet their maker, they continue to lie.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Assuming they actually DID give their “testimonies”, yes, they would have done so to protect the family. In fact, Rigdon knew very well the potential consequences because he was an attorney.

 

[why_me]

Assuming they actually DID give their “testimonies”, yes, they would have done so to protect the family. In fact, Rigdon knew very well the potential consequences because he was an attorney.

I see. So, rigdon again lies on his deathbed giving his testimony to his son that he did not write the book of mormon to protect his family. And Oliver too? And david whitmer? I see.

And of course in America, if the witnesses would have come clean on their deathbeds, the family members would be in trouble. Okay…

 

[LongJourney]

I see. So, Rigdon again lies on his deathbed giving his testimony to his son that he did not write the Book of Mormon to protect his family. And Oliver and David Whitmer. And of course in America, if the witnesses would have come clean on their deathbeds, the family members would be in trouble.

You finally have it figured out!! :extrahappy: The Danites were instituted to protect the LDS church, and they would use whatever threats would be effective. Finally, the breakthrough we have been waiting for!!

 

[SirThomasMore]

If you say so. I think that we can put this conversation to rest. Sidney always denied that he wrote the book. And so did his wife and children. Now you are accusing his wife and kids of lying. Wonderful.

Yes, we can out this to rest. Amazingly, the all of the alleged witnesses to the Book of Mormon could think of nothing better to say on their deathbed than to discuss the book of mormon. Further, you do not understand the concept of criminal conspiracy to commit fraud and the plethora of lawsuits that would have erupted from an admission of the conspiracy.

That about covers it.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Yes, we can out this to rest. Amazingly, the all of the alleged witnesses to the Book of Mormon could think of nothing better to say on their deathbed than to discuss the book of mormon. Further, you do not understand the concept of criminal conspiracy to commit fraud and the plethora of lawsuits that would have erupted from an admission of the conspiracy.

That about covers it.

Forgive me, but I don’t understand why there is even a QUESTION about the so-called “witnesses” of the Book of Mormon. So far as I have ever been able to determine, all the so-called “witnesses” testified that they saw the “Book of Mormon” with their “spiritual” eyes, they never actually said they had seen anything PHYSICALLY. In other words, they never actually saw it at all.

I don’t mean to demean anyone or their faith/belief, but that sort of “spiritual” testimony hardly qualifies as an “eyewitness” account. It is quite obvious that nothing was actually ever SEEN by any of these witnesses. The fact that some, if not all, of these witnesses were later discredited just adds to the problem of whether or not this “witness” account can be relied on. Apparently there is actually no true “eyewitness” account, despite the story recounted in the front of every Book of Mormon.

Does the Mormon Church, through their Missionaries, ever let prospective members know that these witnesses never actually SAW the alleged original Book of Mormon? Does anyone tell them that it was only “seen” with their “spiritual eyes”? Or are prospective converts led to understand that numerous persons saw the Book of Mormon when, in fact, no one ever really did? It would seem that this is a very important question.

 

[PaulDupre]

Does the Mormon Church, through their Missionaries, ever let prospective members know that these witnesses never actually SAW the alleged original Book of Mormon? Does anyone tell them that it was only “seen” with their “spiritual eyes”?

When I was taught by the missionaries, I was certainly never told about that. I was led to believe that the witnesses ACTUALLY SAW the gold plates.

Or are prospective converts led to understand that numerous persons saw the Book of Mormon when, in fact, no one ever really did? It would seem that this is a very important question.

1.5 years later, when I was a Mormon missionary, I still did not know (as my fellow “elders” did not know). When we misled people, we were doing it out of ignorance (as I assume were the “elders” who taught me). Several years later, when I finally realized the truth, I was furious to realize that the LDS leadership knew all this perfectly well, and yet were willing to let us go on deceiving people in order to bring more tithe-payers into the cult.

Paul

 

[why_me]

You finally have it figured out!! :extrahappy: The Danites were instituted to protect the LDS church, and they would use whatever threats would be effective. Finally, the breakthrough we have been waiting for!!

By the time Rigdon died, the danites were a footnote in mormon history. Rigdon died in 1876. Also, mormons certainly would want to know the truth. If rigdon would have fessed up and produced proof of his involvement with the writing of the book of mormon, the lds church would have fallen like a house of cards. And leaders in the lds church were always asking Emma and others about what exactly happened when Joseph was transcribing the book of mormon and what they saw. And sidney was asked by a methodist minister about the book of mormon too on his death bed and sidney said that he did not write it.

 

[why_me]

Forgive me, but I don’t understand why there is even a QUESTION about the so-called “witnesses” of the Book of Mormon. So far as I have ever been able to determine, all the so-called “witnesses” testified that they saw the “Book of Mormon” with their “spiritual” eyes, they never actually said they had seen anything PHYSICALLY. In other words, they never actually saw it at all.

.

Now this is what I am talking about. I don’t think that this is the first time that melanie as made this claim and I have repeatedly shown that the 8 eight witnesses saw and felt the plates. I even brought in references. But…again I am reading the same spin over and over again. And so, here it is for the 15th time:

There are two notable times that John Whitmer defended his testimony of seeing the plates, after leaving the church. The first was on April 5, 1835, when he was accompanying 8 of a group of 50 men who had sworn to not eat or drink until they had murdered “Joe” Smith. In other words, he was with a bunch of guys slightly hostile to the church. The 8 of them approached Theodore Turley, an elder in the church. They handed Elder Turley a revelation of Joseph Smith’s that they were convinced would never happen. They taunted him claiming this was proof that Joseph was a false prophet and demanded that he denounce the church once the revelation had passed without fulfillment. Turley scoffed at them defending the revelation then turned to John Whitmer and said,

“There are many things published that they say are true, and again turn around and say they are false?" Whitmer, asked, "Do you hint at me?" Elder Turley said, "If the cap fits you, wear it; all I know is that you have published to the world that an angel did present those plates to Joseph Smith." John replied: "I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them." Then he described in the presence of these bitter enemies how the plates were fastened and he said, "They were shown to me by a supernatural power."

That was a pretty gutsy response considering he was associating with people who were out for violence against Joseph Smith and the Mormons. Incidentally, the revelation did happen when and where it was said to have. But that’s a subject for a whole other webpage.

 

[why_me]

And here is another account of John Witmer:

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
**Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.**
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q -** Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us**.

moroni10.com/witnesses/John_Whitmer.html

Now if Malenie did not have me on ignore she would have read these accounts over and over again. But trust me, I will be reading the same spiritual eyes routine again on this forum from the same people that I have repeatedly proven wrong.

 

[why_me]

When I was taught by the missionaries, I was certainly never told about that. I was led to believe that the witnesses ACTUALLY SAW the gold plates.

1.5 years later, when I was a Mormon missionary, I still did not know (as my fellow “elders” did not know). When we misled people, we were doing it out of ignorance (as I assume were the “elders” who taught me). Several years later, when I finally realized the truth, I was furious to realize that the LDS leadership knew all this perfectly well, and yet were willing to let us go on deceiving people in order to bring more tithe-payers into the cult.

Paul

You were wrong Paul as I have just proven. John Witmer and others have testified that they saw and felt the plates. And so, why did you leave the lds church? You really need to read up on mormonism and not believe all you read in the internet about it.

And here is hiram and and his son. Hiram says that he saw the plates:

Hiram Page

Insisted Hyrum Page:

As to the Book of Mormon, it would be doing injustice to myself, and to the work of God of the last days, to say that I could know a thing to be true in 1830, and know the same thing to be false in 1847.[8]

Page’s son recalled after his death:
I knew my father to be true and faithful to his testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon until the very last. Whenever he had an opportunity to bear his testimony to this effect, **he would always do so, and seemed to rejoice exceedingly in having been privileged to see the plates**.[9]

 

[why_me]

Since malenie has me on ignore could someone please send her the link that I provided. I really don’t want her to have any misunderstandings. I have often provided proof, but it just doesn’t sink in to the oldtimers on the mormon threads. I wonder why?