Unless you eat my FLESH and drink my BLOOD you have no life in you.

  • Thread starter Thread starter donnyblake
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As much as I love reading and participating on these boards, the more time I spend here, the more I realize these discussions rarely lead to anything productive. It always seems people repeat their side of the discussion and the other side repeats theirs. Most people who come onto these boards have firm beliefs and know strongly how to defend it, so it always seems like circular arguments.

We say we appreciate the others’ beliefs but then it comes back to an attempt to prove them wrong, followed by a repeating of why it should be that way. I am Catholic and I believe in transubstantiation. I understand why Anglicans have their belief that they have the True Presence. It ends there. I appreciate the posts by everyone because it helps me understand where others are coming from, but a constant battle trying to explain why the other is wrong does not lead to anything fruitful. Am I way off?

Namaste.

SFO
 
whats everybodies take on these comments?
Well if they had some proof that their sect was around in the time of the Apostles, or anytime before a couple centuries (or decades) ago they might have had a case.

Since the frequency is WELL documented (starting with Acts 20:7) along with the correct interpretation of John 6, from the time of the Apostles to last Sunday, what more need be said?

Again those of the Apostles times (the gnostics) who believed John 6 refered to belief in Christ and not His Body also didn’t believe Christ had a Body, and denied the Crucifixion, as the Apostolic Father St. Ignatius wrote in his letter to the Smyrnaeans in c. 105.

Yes John doesn’t talk about the institution of the Eucharist in 6. As a matter of fact, he doesn’t talk of it at all. Why, because he talks enough about the import of it in 6.

Since St. Paul has answered, thought they missed it, the question of why not 24/7, in I corinthians 11:22, what more need be said, but a little bit of God goes a long way.
 
”If.” But, He’s not.

Your argument, though utterly brilliant to Catholics, is specious, Mike, as it wrongly equates
rejection of real presence, and transubstantiation—two different things—with a rejection
of God’s revelation.

There is a way of proving it to me, Mike—prove it from the Revelation that you infer I reject.
And where did I say that you have rejected Divine Revelation? I was using an analogy and speaking in general. The point of my post was that, due to your rejection of the real presence/transubstatiation, there is no possible way of proving to you that anyone has eaten the flesh and blood of Christ in the Bible because eating the flesh and blood of Christ means the Eucharist. That’s like a person staunchly holding on to the JW interpretation of the traditional “Trinitarian” verses and then asking a trinitarian Christian to prove from the Bible that Jesus is God. That discussion would certainly be fruitless.
You claim that people in the bible ate Christ’s flesh, and drank His blood; the bible states that they ate bread, and drank wine in remembrance of His real sacrifice on the cross—what are you committed to with transubstantiation
We receive the body and blood of Christ under the forms of bread and wine. The visible signs of bread and wine symbolize the invisible reality, the body and blood of Christ truly present in the Eucharist. Thus we have no problem with references to the Eucharist in the Bible as bread or wine. Again, I repeat the question asked by Saint Paul himself:

16Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

I guess your response to this question is no.

God Bless,
Michael
 
whats everybodies take on these comments?
I’ve partially repsonded to that argument with the following:

If John 6:51-58 were talking about faith, then there would be no controversy because he just talked about faith in v.v. 29 -35. And as I have shown in two other posts, the established pattern in Jesus’s method of teaching/preaching is one of progressive revelation. He moves from ambiguity to greater clarity, not from clarity to greater ambiguity. So he would not start with the literal meaning first (i.e. faith) and then use the figure, as occurs in John 6. Also, when He does use figurative language difficult to understand, either He or the evangelist explains what He mean. Secondly, John 6:56 talks about “abiding.”

56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Abiding occurs subsequent to incorporation into Christ, after one has believed.

John 15:3-4
**3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. **

1 John 2:24,28

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming
.

So eating the Body of Christ and drinking His Blood is a means of abiding in Christ. Thus it was most appropraite for Him to start with faith in chapter 6 and then move to abiding in Christ through the Eucharist because coming to faith precedes abiding and one must believe first before partaking of the Eucharist. Only those who abide in Christ will continue to have eternal life and will be raised on the last day.

John 15:4-6

**4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

God Bless,
Michael
 
Let me ask you something. Right here. Did Jesus take a chunk of Himself and feed it to the disciples? Did He prick Himself and and pour the blood into the cup and pass it around?
Jesus said "This IS my body… [emphasis added???] not this is a symbol of my body, etc…
When He says “Unless you eat my FLESH and drink my BLOOD you have no life in you.” He is saying that you have to remember and partake of the sacrifice. Even symbolism can be heavy. Just look at the parables!
Then why is it such a serious sin to take Communion, not discerning the Body of Christ? (1 Cor. 11:22) so much so that people even “sleep” (death)…??:eek:
 
Catholics in the know, are always quick to point out that when Jesus talks about belief in Himself, He is not talking about a one-time event, but in continuous belief—24 hours a day, 7 days a week—as the Greek present tense indicates.
The same is true of John 6:54—it is about belief, and it is in the present tense (continuous action); in order to be consistent with the Catholic teaching of this verse as the literal eating of the Lord’s flesh, and blood, Catholics should be consuming the eucharist 24 hours a day, 7 days a week until they die; are you doing that?
I’m not a Greek expert, so I have a question. Is the following use of the word for “eats” the same Greek word used in John 6:

1 Corinthians 11:27

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

If it’s the same Greek word, does that mean they have to continually eat the bread or drink the cup in an unworthy manner for 24 hours a day and seven days a week in order to be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord or is one time sufficient?

God Bless,
Michael
 
Since this has been practically ignored, I’m going to repost this:

John 6:51-58 is to be interpreted literally and is one of the strongest passages that testify to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. In the Gospel of John, there is a certain pattern that helps to shed light on John 6. Whenever Jesus makes an ambiguous statement, it is usually followed by a misunderstanding/question, and this, in turn, is followed by a clarification either by Jesus or the Evangelist. So, this is the basic outline of this pattern:
  1. **Ambiguous Statement by Jesus **
  2. Misunderstanding/ Question
  3. Clarification
Now here are some examples from the Gospel of John:

John 2:19-21

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

John 3:3-5

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?Jesus answered, "Truly Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

John 4:32-34

"But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples were saying to one another, 'no one brought Him anything to eat, did he? Jesus said to them, " My Food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to accomplish His work."

John 8:31-34

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, “You will become free.” Jesus answered them, "Truly, Truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Now let’s look at John 6:51-53 and see if it fits the Ambiguous Statement/Question/Clarification pattern:

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Truly, Truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in yourselves.

So, following the established pattern, verse 53 is a clarification of verses 51-52. If he were merely speaking figuratively, then we would have expected the literal meaning of the “figurative” langauge he used, as it happens in the verses I gave above and in many other places in the Bible. Instead, what we see in verse 53 is a reaffirmation of what the Jews understood Jesus to mean. So the clarification is that Jesus was speaking literally, not figuratively. If he were speaking figuratively, He would have indicated that in verse 53.

God Bless,
Michael
 
The point of the above post is that when Jesus is speaking figuratively, either Jesus Himself or the Gospel writer explains what He means. He often uses progressive revelation as a teaching method, going from ambiguity to greater clarity. There are numerous examples of this in the 4 Gospels. Here are some more:

John 4:10-14

**10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12"You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?”
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” **

John 8:56-58

**56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” **

John 10:1-10

**1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. **

John 7:38-39

38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’"
39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive


John 12:32-33

**32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. **

John 21:18-19

**18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. **

Matthew 16:6-12

6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”
8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?[a] 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


This does not happen in John 6.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Nothing personal or uncharitable intended by the following comment. Just using the forum to express the truth as I see it.

This forum is, to me, very clear evidence of the folly of sola scriptura. You may accept any interpretation – so long as it’s not the one that has the guarantee of the Holy Spirit and which all accepted for 1500 years (and if you didn’t accept you were a heretic)…
You may make your own interpretation; you may change your interpretation. Eventually you may start to change the words to support your interpretation – or maybe even get rid of a few books.
The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.

Regards
tim
 
40.png
mikeledes:
And where did I say that you have rejected Divine Revelation? I was using an analogy and speaking in general. The point of my post was that, due to your rejection of the real presence/transubstatiation, there is no possible way of proving to you that anyone has eaten the flesh and blood of Christ in the Bible because eating the flesh and blood of Christ means the Eucharist. That’s like a person staunchly holding on to the JW interpretation of the traditional “Trinitarian” verses and then asking a trinitarian Christian to prove from the Bible that Jesus is God. That discussion would certainly be fruitless.
Forgive me, Mike, for taking a wrong inference. The only way God’s truth is conveyed, Mike, is not by your persuasion, but by the working of the Spirit; the Spirit took me out of your church years ago.
40.png
mikeledes:
We receive the body and blood of Christ under the forms of bread and wine. The visible signs of bread and wine symbolize the invisible reality, the body and blood of Christ truly present in the Eucharist. Thus we have no problem with references to the Eucharist in the Bible as bread or wine. Again, I repeat the question asked by Saint Paul himself:

16Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

I guess your response to this question is no.
You as Catholics do that, I don’t.

The cup of blessing is not the literal blood of Christ, Mike; that was shed on the cross, one time (Heb 10:10); neither is the bread the literal body of Christ, Mike; that was sacrificed on the cross, one time; Christ presently sits at the right hand of the Father, in the body that He offered; He will come again, once more, in the same manner in which He left (Acts 1:11); and, when He comes again, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4); He did not promise to come again, and again, and again, and again, all over the world, in the Eucharistic remembrance of His one-time sacrifice.
40.png
mikeledes:
I’m not a Greek expert, so I have a question. Is the following use of the word for “eats” the same Greek word used in John 6:

1 Corinthians 11:27

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

If it’s the same Greek word, does that mean they have to continually eat the bread or drink the cup in an unworthy manner for 24 hours a day and seven days a week in order to be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord or is one time sufficient?
Different words, Mike; it’s not the word that determines the duration of the action, but the tense. In 1 Cor 11:27 the verb is a present, participle—IOW, if you continually do it, you are guilty; when you stop doing it, you are no longer guilty.

(continued below)
 
(continued from post #149)
40.png
mikeledes:
Since this has been practically ignored, I’m going to repost this:

John 6:51-58 is to be interpreted literally and is one of the strongest passages that testify to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. In the Gospel of John, there is a certain pattern that helps to shed light on John 6. Whenever Jesus makes an ambiguous statement, it is usually followed by a misunderstanding/question, and this, in turn, is followed by a clarification either by Jesus or the Evangelist. So, this is the basic outline of this pattern:
  1. Ambiguous Statement by Jesus
  2. Misunderstanding/ Question
  3. Clarification
So you’ve found the “progressive revelation pattern” in the Lord’s teaching? And to what conclusion does it lead it you, Mike? Transubstantiation, perhaps? Why is that?

One need not leave the passage, or search for patterns, to grasp the meaning of eating
Christ’s flesh.

I’ll not bore you with an in-depth look, because I’m certain, that as you have done in the past, so too you will now, just ignore what I say, and begin again your assertions from the top.

In Jn 6:35, Jesus clearly says, that “coming and eating alleviates hunger and thirst.” (So much for the beginning ambiguity of your pattern).

Jesus says in v40, in unambiguous language, “everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

V54, is parallel in construction to v40, and states the unambiguous language ***figuratively.*****V40: …everyone who
V54: He who

V40: beholds the Son
V54: eats My flesh

V40: and
V54: and

V40: believes in Him
V54: drinks my blood

V40: will have eternal life
V54: has eternal life

V40: and
V54: and

V40: I Myself will raise Him up
V54: I will raise Him up

V40: on the last day
V54: on the last dayComing and believing in Christ = Eating and drinking His flesh and blood.**

Nothing ambiguous, if you have ears.
 
As much as I love reading and participating on these boards, the more time I spend here, the more I realize these discussions rarely lead to anything productive. It always seems people repeat their side of the discussion and the other side repeats theirs. Most people who come onto these boards have firm beliefs and know strongly how to defend it, so it always seems like circular arguments.

We say we appreciate the others’ beliefs but then it comes back to an attempt to prove them wrong, followed by a repeating of why it should be that way. I am Catholic and I believe in transubstantiation. I understand why Anglicans have their belief that they have the True Presence. It ends there. I appreciate the posts by everyone because it helps me understand where others are coming from, but a constant battle trying to explain why the other is wrong does not lead to anything fruitful. Am I way off?

Namaste.

SFO
I think you are dead on;) That is why I dont participate as much anymore just read alot.👍
 
I think you are dead on;) That is why I dont participate as much anymore just read alot.👍
he makes a good point. The one has to ask. Who is speaking the Truth about the Real presence in the Blessed Sacrament? The Protestants who deny it or those who believe in Jesus’ Real Presence.

The Church teaches the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Protestant claim that their Holy Spirit say it is Symbolic.

Sounds like a contradiction in God’s mind concerning doctrine. God is immutable. He is the same today, tomorrow, and yesterday. He does not change his mind in doctrine. So those who deny it are deceiving themselves from the truth.
 
you are committed
to tradition.
Yet you want to introduce OCTAVIUS The Christian as a witness - because whomever he is you think he agrees with you. Once again you use ‘authority’, when it suits

Who is OCTAVIUS The Christian?
 
Yet you want to introduce OCTAVIUS The Christian as a witness - because whomever he is you think he agrees with you. Once again you use ‘authority’, when it suits

Who is OCTAVIUS The Christian?
I didn’t introduce him; you introduced him in your link.
 
I didn’t introduce him; you introduced him in your link.
I didn’t introduce him. I introduced a link; which supports the notion that pagans thought that Christians were cannibals. That’s what it shows.

Me ‘introducing him’ is like saying I *introduced *Gospelcom.net which is also linked there.

I wished to make no further point that that. HOWEVER you now ‘cite’ a particular person from that site. I asked you about this, and you simply resort to semantics.

Why do you accept him as an authority?

If you want what he actually said, I would then cite…
earlychristianwritings.com/text/octavius.html

My point that a Protestant site recognises that the early christian community were accused of cannibalism has not been disputed by you.

I guess me citing this site has confused you and you would expect that I would be a supporter of all of Gospelnet’s ideas by citing said!

So I ask you again, why do you believe him
 
The cup of blessing is not the literal blood of Christ, Mike; that was shed on the cross, one time (Heb 10:10);
And then why are we not to “forsake the assembling of ourselves together as is the manner of some” v. 25. [see below on the some].

And how are we to partake of the altar of this sacrifice, and drink the cup of the Lord and partake of the Lord’s table? I Cor. 10:14-22. It can’t be eating meat offered to idols, as St. Paul has declared that permitted (8:4, 7-8) which he repeats 10:25. No, it is the Liturgy of the Lord and the Liturgy of Demons that is being spoken of.

neither is the bread the literal body of Christ, Mike; that was sacrificed on the cross, one time; Christ presently sits at the right hand of the Father, in the body that He offered; He will come again, once more, in the same manner in which He left (Acts 1:11); and, when He comes again, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4); He did not promise to come again, and again, and again, and again, all over the world, in the Eucharistic remembrance of His one-time sacrifice.

What were His Last words?"Lo, I am with you always [lit. Greek “all of the Days”] even unto the end of the Age.

On the Road to Emmaus, did they know Him Bible Study? No (v.32). “He was known to the them IN THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD.” (v. 35)

“Now on the first day of the week *, when the disciples came together TO BREAK BREAD.” Acts 20:7.

Why did they gather to break bread? To eat? Did they not “have houses in which to eat and to drink?” (I Cor. 11:22) Look to see why they gathered on every Sunday to break bread, why since the Resurrection they gathered to break bread, and why we (Orthoodox and Latin) will gather tommorrow to break bread: I Cor. 11:23-33). until He come (v.26), because would would not drink it with us “until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom,” Matthew 26:29, that day being when He will come in the same manner that He left.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church on the left of the altar is the icon of Christ with His mother, how He CAME. On the right is the icon of Christ the Ruler of All, how He WILL COME. Between them, the altar, the Eucharist, how HE COMES NOW.

As Christ said (John 16) is was good that He leave, so the Holy Spirit might come. It is the Holy Spirit which comes down to make the change in the epiclesis, and thereby Christ comes down.

The problem of your refering to the sacrifice of Calvary in denying the Real Presence is it is an innovation. In the times of the Apostles those who believed in the sacrifice of the Cross believed in the sacrifice of the altar/Real Presence; those who did not believe in either one denied both. Both positions were consistent. The Gnostics denied the Real Presence because they denied that God the Word took flesh and hung on the Cross. St. Iranaeus who knew and was ordained by St. Paul to succeed St. Peter at Antioch, in c. 105 writes:

[The Gnositcs] forsake the assembling from the Eucharist and the prayer and the Eucharist because they will not admit that the Eucharist is the self same body of our Savior Jesus Christ which sufferd for our sins and which the Father in His goodness afterwards raised up again.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vii.vii.html

[btw if you say that “that’s tradition” it’s the same tradition that copied and passed on the NT until the time of the Reformation]

The Protestant innovation, 1500 years later is to accept one without the other.*
 
I think you are dead on;) That is why I dont participate as much anymore just read alot.👍
I think this is a really good point… The original post really caught my interest yesterday, but I didn’t have time ro respond at the office. When I thought about it further, I remembered I’d answered these same questions several times before, so sometimes it’s like…what is the point? 🙂 But here goes…

As to how precisely Christ could say to his disciples “take and eat this…”, it seems to me that the key there is that Christ stood at that moment both in and out of time and space. God made man was really and trully present, but He also existed as God before and after this moment marked on the timeline of history.

If it were not a difficult mystery, He would not have lost the followers He did over this as documented in John 6. I think we often make it more complex than it is, though. If we simply think of it in terms of God declaring value A equal to value B, then we find a way to understand it, or, at least, accept it. After all, if God calls a door a window, who are we to correct the Creator of the universe? I’d suggest we accept what He says as true, and try to work our feeble minds (yours perhaps less feeble than mind) around the idea. (Aristotelean idea of substance and “accidents” is also helpful to me, at least.)

As far as what becomes of Protestants who don’t “drink of the blood” or “eat of the body”, we have to pray for them and trust in God’s love and faithfulness. The CCC points out that they may, in a sense, be Catholics in a way that they themselves don’t understand or grasp. Still, it’s true that they don’t have the Eucharist. I don’t believe they are lost, but it is certainly troubling.

Here are some notes that might be helpful from a presentation I did in May. (As I may be using bits and pieces of this again for other presentations or articles, please don’t use without permission.)

In C.S. Lewis’ ***Letters to Malcolm, ***this great Anglican writer expresses his deep confusion and ambivalence regarding the mysterious nature of communion and the Eucharist. It is indeed difficult to get one’s brain around. In truth, we can’t get our brains around it.

As Protestants, we always believed in a literal interpretation of Scripture, but we sure didn’t feel that way about the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John or 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, which reads as follows.

"Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgement on himself."

After all, one doesn’t talk about a mere symbol this way, but that’s all we understood as Protestants.

As we learned more and more about the Catholic Church, however, we began to realize how profoundly mistaken we had been.

When Christ commanded that we eat His flesh and drink His blood, they were indeed troubling and mysterious words.

The words were deeply troubling to everyone who heard them.

It would have been unlike Christ not to correct any misconception regarding a matter of such grave importance to the life of the Church.

No where in the Bible or in the writings of the Church fathers is the Eucharist explained away as a mere symbol.

As Saint Augustine wrote of the Eucharist in Confessions, "I am the food of full-grown men. Grow and you shall feed on me. But you shall not change me into your own substance, as you do with the food of your body. Instead you shall be changed into me."

When we are privileged to receive the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our savior in the sacrament of the Eucharist at Mass, we are becoming more and more like the men and women God intended us to truly be, created in the image of God.

There is also a sense that we are exiting the human timeline for a moment as we are joining with all Catholics—past, present, and future.
 
(continued from post #149)

So you’ve found the “progressive revelation pattern” in the Lord’s teaching? And to what conclusion does it lead it you, Mike? Transubstantiation, perhaps? Why is that?

One need not leave the passage, or search for patterns, to grasp the meaning of eating
Christ’s flesh.

I’ll not bore you with an in-depth look, because I’m certain, that as you have done in the past, so too you will now, just ignore what I say, and begin again your assertions from the top.

In Jn 6:35, Jesus clearly says, that “coming and eating alleviates hunger and thirst.” (So much for the beginning ambiguity of your pattern).
No, no ambiguity, therefore no misunderstanding, therefore no correction.
Jesus says in v40, in unambiguous language, “everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
V54, is parallel in construction to v40, and states the unambiguous language ***figuratively.*****V40: …everyone who
**V54: He who
V40: beholds the Son
V54: eats My flesh
V40: and
V54: and
V40: believes in Him
V54: drinks my blood
V40: will have eternal life
V54: has eternal life
V40: and
V54: and
V40: I Myself will raise Him up
V54: I will raise Him up
V40: on the last day
V54: on the last dayComing and believing in Christ = Eating and drinking His flesh and blood.
Nothing ambiguous, if you have ears.
As for this construction, see above. In Apostolic times no one who believed did not also commune, and none that disbelieved communed.

Again, this only reinforces that He is speakers to believers, not those who turned there backs because it was a hard saying. It is addressed to those who said ‘where would we go.’

If there was any ambiguity/misunderstanding that it was literal, as the OP showed, St. John would have corrected it. He didn’t, because it was understood liteally. It is also why He never recounts the Last Supper, but expounds on its import in John 6.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top