Unmarried Catholic school teacher has baby

[distracted]

WHAT THE …???

I can’t believe people are even discussing this. The woman made a mistake, she kept the baby, we must, in charity, assume that she has repented. She decided to go on doing a low-paid job in order to pass the faith on to your children, even though that must be extremely difficult with no spousal income. What do you expect?

We are none of us perfect. Maybe the male teachers in the school masturbate, maybe some married couples use contraception, maybe some members of the school board run businesses where they are defrauding their workers (far worse than any sexual sin!) Maybe some parents don’t even believe in God but only send their kids to that school because the exam results are better than the public school. If we go around thinking about all the bad things that other people might be up to, we will end up in despair and cutting ourselves off from all ties of Christian love.

Instead of asking whether she should be dismissed, have you thought about asking whether she needs any help looking after the baby!

Excellent points…

The only thing i don’t agree with is the part where you say that defauding people is worse than any sexual sin… Sexual sins, accrording to the saints, are the ones that get people into Hell more than any other… I know from experience that this is true… because when i even think of such things (get aroused… but don’t do anything about it), it wreaks havok in my relationship with God… so if just thinking about… that & being aroused, not even doing anything to satisfy that urge can mess up your thing with God… imagine waht doing something sexual (outside holy matrimony) does… :hypno: uch:

 

[distracted]

Personally, I am not comfortable with the idea that this Catholic school has let the mom bring her baby in to school for the girls to go gaga over. To me, that is almost like allowing the mom to brag that she had a child when everyone knows she is not married. I don’t think they should have allowed her to do this. But then again, at least the mother did not get an abortion.

i totally agree… it can send a message to the girls that having a baby without being married is not really such a bad or “inconvenient” thing… Just look at the “rewards”… cute little baby… someone who loves and needs the mother…
Not a good message to send… unless the teacher were to show all the hardships of her life as a single mom also…

Even still, i think she should not take the child to school…

 

[whatevergirl]

True, but if she is repentant…that’s all that matters. God doesn’t keep score in heaven…He is a loving and merciful God, who when we repent…throws a party, probably. Well, rejoices.

Remember the parable where the 99 sheep followed the shepherd, but the one escaped, and was lost? The meaning behind it being that the shepherd is rejoicing over finding the one lost sheep, than the 99 who didn’t stray.

We’re not in a position to judge this woman’s soul. Only God can, and we need to be very careful to not paint a picture to kids that a person should feel ashamed after repentance…and foster an environment that causes a young unwed girl who is pregnant, to think twice about having a baby, if she suspects that she will be treated (or her baby) in the same way.

 

[whatevergirl]

PS–Likewise, we shouldn’t foster an environment that advocates it either, or dismisses sin. Hopefully, my point came across ok.

 

[JRamosSFO]

I don’t think you should judge the teacher. Leave her morality to her and God. What I would do is not get involved in the teacher’s personal life and instead have a talk with your daughter about sexual morality and that she’s bound to find many sexually immoral people but other people shouldn’t affect her relationship with God. Perhaps even read her some Bible quotes like Matthew 7:13-14 :

Just to show her most people won’t be truly following Christ but that still Christ commands her to enter through the narrow gate. Just a thought.

Oh and kind of ironically, Jesus’ parable on judging comes right before that quote - looks like Matthew 7 was made for your situation perhaps!

Children learn through example. They are spending most of their day around school. I send my kids to a Catholic School so that they can be shown a Catholic Christian example. It is one of the requirments for a teacher to be considered for employment at a Catholic School. If I wanted to have to explain why their teachers did things that were against Church law, they would still be in public school. Any discussion other than this teachers “Catholic” example is off topic.

 

[whatevergirl]

Children learn through example. They are spending most of their day around school. I send my kids to a Catholic School so that they can be shown a Catholic Christian example. It is one of the requirments for a teacher to be considered for employment at a Catholic School. If I wanted to have to explain why their teachers did things that were against Church law, they would still be in public school. Any discussion other than this teachers “Catholic” example is off topic.

I understand that–but this should be the exception, shouldn’t it? I doubt that Catholic schools are filled with unwed pregnant teachers…I think that this is hopefully an isolated incident, and we also need to teach that to our kids. This is not acceptable in God’s eyes, but people make mistakes. As long as Catholic schools continue to hire unmarried lay men and women to teach–there will be the possiblity of this type of thing happening moreso than when my husband attended Catholic school, and the teachers were mainly nuns and priests.

And for the record, my kids have been in public schools, where most (99%) of their teachers have been married. Not many were divorced, and only one or two were engaged. So, I don’t think that there is the dramatically poor example of teachers living unchaste lives being put in our kids’ faces everyday, in the public school arena. Not from what I’ve seen, but I agree, that one would expect that the teachers, if they are lay, and unmarried, would take a vow of chastity to become teachers in a Catholic school.

Is that vow–required before they sign on with these Catholic schools?

 

[PaulinVA]

…but I agree, that one would expect that the teachers, if they are lay, and unmarried, would take a vow of chastity to become teachers in a Catholic school.

Is that vow–required before they sign on with these Catholic schools?

The vow is implied, I guess, in the employment contract clause that talks about following/living church teaching.

I understand that we want to be supportive and express Christian love for this woman.

Allowing her to continue working (being unwed and pregnant) in a Catholic school and later bringing the baby into school is the issue. The issue is not her worth as a person.

We don’t want to set up a situation where the kids are being taught one thing in school(Catholic sexual morality) and seeing, at the same school, and example of how Catholic sexual morality can’t be followed. Sort of like teaching abstinence with a bowl of condoms on the desk, you know?

 

[whatevergirl]

The vow is implied, I guess, in the employment contract clause that talks about following/living church teaching.

I understand that we want to be supportive and express Christian love for this woman.

Allowing her to continue working (being unwed and pregnant) in a Catholic school and later bringing the baby into school is the issue. The issue is not her worth as a person.

We don’t want to set up a situation where the kids are being taught one thing in school(Catholic sexual morality) and seeing, at the same school, and example of how Catholic sexual morality can’t be followed. Sort of like teaching abstinence with a bowl of condoms on the desk, you know?

Hi Paul

No, I totally get what you’re saying…I am saying though to also be mindful that teaching kids and young people to not have abortions while firing a woman who chose life, also sends a weird message. This teacher doesn’t deserve a medal for having the baby, lol…but I think we send a very confusing message if she’s fired over this. It’s a tough deal, no two ways about it!

 

[JRamosSFO]

I’m not saying that she should be fired, or shunned. We are all sinners. I’m simply responding to the obvious. From what was originally said, it has not been made clear to the children in her class that there is anything wrong with her having a child while unmarried. By bringing the child to school the way she did, she flaunted her disobedience to Church law. If this had not been done there would be a much different issue here. Now that is all out in the open…it should be adressed by the school.

Peace in Christ

 

[PaulinVA]

Hi Paul

No, I totally get what you’re saying…I am saying though to also be mindful that teaching kids and young people to not have abortions while firing a woman who chose life, also sends a weird message. This teacher doesn’t deserve a medal for having the baby, lol…but I think we send a very confusing message if she’s fired over this. It’s a tough deal, no two ways about it!

Hi!

I think that kids yearn for consistency, because that makes things easier to understand. I think it is confusing to hear the chastity message and see someone in authority, in a Catholic school, not get disciplined for not practicing chastity.

The teaching we try to achieve is really that there are decisions to be made every day, and some of those decisions affect you for the rest of your life.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, you could go to jail and your parents might get sued. And, someone is dead.

If you tell off the boss in your MySpace page, you could get fired. You might have a hard time finding another job.

If you don’t study, you won’t go to college immediately out of high school.

If you have sex, the natural result is to become pregnant; a baby changes your life forever. If you become pregnant outside of wedlock, there is a big chance that you and your child will live in poverty. Being a single parent is hard.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi!

I think that kids yearn for consistency, because that makes things easier to understand. I think it is confusing to hear the chastity message and see someone in authority, in a Catholic school, not get disciplined for not practicing chastity.

The teaching we try to achieve is really that there are decisions to be made every day, and some of those decisions affect you for the rest of your life.

If you drive drunk and kill someone, you could go to jail and your parents might get sued. And, someone is dead.

If you tell off the boss in your MySpace page, you could get fired. You might have a hard time finding another job.

If you don’t study, you won’t go to college immediately out of high school.

If you have sex, the natural result is to become pregnant; a baby changes your life forever. If you become pregnant outside of wedlock, there is a big chance that you and your child will live in poverty. Being a single parent is hard.

I agree on all of your points…so what should the discipline here be? If she is fired, are we also teaching kids that if one is repentant…he/she doesn’t deserve another chance? God gives us second, third, fourth chances all of the time. I totally understand…I do. I just don’t know a good way to remedy the situation.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

Let’s consider what the Church teaches.

The vatican endorses labor policies that do not force women to choose between a career and motherhood.

…“it will redound to the credit of society to make it possible for a mother – without inhibiting her freedom, without psychological or practical discrimination and without penalizing her as compared with other women [Pope John Paul II, Laborem exercens]

…social policies – in the areas of education, work, family, access to services and civic participation – must combat all unjust sexual discrimination, they must also listen to the aspirations and identify the needs of all. The defence and promotion of equal dignity and common personal values must be harmonized with attentive recognition of the difference and reciprocity between the sexes where this is relevant to the realization of one’s humanity, whether male or female. + Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, On the Collaboration of Men and Women in the Church and in the World]

According to the teachings of the Catholic church society should always and everywhere provide help to families, even unwed mothers, and a welcome worthy of a person should be given every child coming into this world.

1. …it is the task of law to pursue a reform of society and of conditions of life in all milieux, starting with the most deprived, so that always and everywhere it may be possible to give every child coming into this world a welcome worthy of a person. Help for families and for unmarried mothers, assured grants for children, a statute for illegitimate children and reasonable arrangements for adoption - a whole positive policy must be put into force so that there will always be a concrete, honorable and possible alternative to abortion.

{emphasis mine}

Also according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, for an unmarried woman to choose life is considered heroic:

1. Following one’s conscience in obedience to the law of God is not always the easy way. One must not fail to recognize the weight of the sacrifices and the burdens which it can impose. Heroism is sometimes called for in order to remain faithful to the requirements of the divine law. Therefore, we must emphasize that the path of true progress of the human person passes through this constant fidelity to a conscience maintained in uprightness and truth;

{emphasis mine}

AND we are exhorted to lighten their burdens:

…and we must exhort all those who are able to do so to lighten the burdens still crushing so many men and women, families and children, who are placed in situations to which, in human terms, there is no solution.

But this does not mean that one can remain indifferent to these sorrows and miseries. Every man and woman with feeling, and certainly every Christian, must be ready to do what he can to remedy them. This is the law of charity, of which the first preoccupation must always be the establishment of justice. One can never approve of abortion; but it is above all necessary to combat its causes. This includes political action, which will be in particular the task of the law. But it is necessary at the same time to influence morality and to do everything possible to help families, mothers and children. (The Supreme Pontiff Pope Paul VI, June 28, 1974, Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration on Procured Abortion)

{emphasis mine}

So it does appear that the Catholic school we are discussing is complying with the teachings of the Church in retaining this teacher, lightening the burdens, recognizing her heroism in bringing forth new life and in providing this child a welcome worthy of a person.

 

[PaulinVA]

RachelsAlumni,

Nice post.

What does it specifically have to do with allowing an unwed pregnant woman to teach at a Catholic school, in violation of her employment contract?

The only thing that I can conclude from your posts is that you think that the employment contract should not include a “follow Catholic teaching clause” and that the Catholic schools should hire anyone that comes in the door.

Sounds like the death of Catholic education.

 

[BLUEMOON74]

This is a really tricky situation. The original querent stated that she is still living with the boyfriend with no plans to get married! Why is that? To me if they were on the outs and were not planning on getting married and he did NOT live with her that would be one thing but where she pushes it, is the fact that she is deliberately living with this guy with no plans from either of them to get married, bringing the baby to school, and the children know this! This is the problem. Why live together after something like this if you have no plans on getting married? It’s already a sin to live together and its a sin to have a child out of wedlock. It is better to make that child legitimate and make the realtionship right before the eyes of God and her students. She is supposed to be setting an example for her students. I think if they would have gotten married or engaged that would have been setting somewhat of a better example than what this teacher is doing now. I dont think with her behavior that she really deserves to teach at a Catholic school for ALL obvious reasons. She needs to tone it down and do something about her personal circumstances and prepare to teach these students of hers about the consequences of her actions, yes, perhaps a lesson on choosing life over the other, explaining her mistake, but choosing the more courageous and christian choice to the alternative and her plans to make the most of this situation one good time and then leave it at that. Then there will be no more speculation and the kids actually got something good from it. She isnt doing this and this is FACT stated by CreatioDad. I think thats the biggest prob here there seems to be no real repentance, and its not our guess its str8 from the source. There are good public schools out there but people pay big money to send their kids to Catholic School for a reason and this is not going to cut it. I personally would be really pis*ed off if this were my child affected like this by her teacher and I was spending my time and money specifically to teach her something different. I would feel somewhat backdoored on my morals by the very people I entrust my child too everyday. If this teacher were actually acting like a mature adult over this, I would have a different take on the matter.

It appears though that CreatioDad has already taken the high road, spoke with his daughter, did damage control, is not taking it up with the school bc it’s a moot point for administrators now as they have already made their decision on the matter, and have moved on. Good for dad. We wish him the very best. God Bless him and his family.

 

[HappyPerson]

The fact that she is cohabitating shows she is unrepentent, and willing to live in flagrant opposition to Church teachings. Thus the, “Who are we to judge whether she is repentent” argument doesn’t fly here.

It is a weak argument to twist Church documents around to suggest that she is a “hero” for not murdering her baby. If she was truly a hero, she wouldn’t have risked getting herself into a situation where she might bring a baby into the world without being married to that baby’s father. (REAL widows are exceptions to what I just said, as any married man could potentially die within those nine months.) Thus, the whole, “at least she didn’t have an abortion” argument doesn’t fly, here, either.

If she was removed from the school, as she should have been, then the baby would have no reason for being in the school, so the “How can we treat the baby so poorly,” argument also does not fly here.

If a parent tells a child, “don’t steal,” and then convinces that 13 year old child to claim she is only 12 to get into the movies at a lower price, the “don’t steal” message comes across as irrelevant and impractical.

The way I see it, it is outright SCANDALOUS to keep that teacher employed. It is no longer about her and her baby. It needs to be about what is in the best interests of the students, and we can NOT assume that all parents are going to turn this into a “teachable moment,” since the bigger message the children received is that good things(the baby) come out of sin.

I happen to know that (At least in my archdiocese) there is a surplus of qualified teachers. What would an unemployed sexually MORAL Catholic school teacher think if she knew that she couldn’t get a job while a co-habitating woman who wantonly flaunted the product of her sin(her baby) possibly to get positive reactions from her students was employed. If I was that sexually MORAL unemployed teacher, I would certainly cry foul, and surpass the administration and go straight to the Bishop when I voice my grievances.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

It is a weak argument to twist Church documents around to suggest that she is a “hero” for not murdering her baby. If she was truly a hero, she wouldn’t have risked getting herself into a situation where she might bring a baby into the world without being married to that baby’s father.

IMO your argument does not stand in comparison with the clear & consistent teachings of the Church.

It is not ‘twisting words’ to quote verbatim (and provide the link) His Holiness Pope Paul VI’s Declaration on Procured Abortion “Following one’s conscience in obedience to the law of God is not always the easy way. One must not fail to recognize the weight of the sacrifices and the burdens which it can impose. Heroism is sometimes called for in order to remain faithful to the requirements of the divine law.”

I think it’s pretty clear that he’s saying when it comes to procured abortion heroism is called for to remain faithful to the requirements of the divine law AND that we must ***not fail to recognize ***the weight of sacrifices and burdens of following one’s conscience in obedience to the law of God.

Obviously, women who become pregnant out of wedlock always feel a great deal of weight and burden. Women by their very nature desire and need a husband to father, provide for and parent their children. When a situation arises where this is not the case, regardless of who is to blame or what mistakes have been made, it is still a great burden on the woman. I quoted earlier that nearly 73% of women choose abortion due to lack of support. Heroism and a great deal of trust in God’s providence is, therefore, called for in these women who face such uncertainty and choose life under these conditions.

You consistently fail to recognize that this teacher is providing a heroic prolife example to all those around her in obedience to the law of God.

In addition to what I’ve quoted from Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II in Evangelium Vitae also says:

…In living out their mission “these heroic women do not always find support in the world around them. On the contrary, the cultural models frequently promoted and broadcast by the media do not encourage motherhood. In the name of progress and modernity the values of fidelity, chastity, sacrifice, to which a host of Christian wives and mothers have borne and continue to bear outstanding witness, are presented as obsolete … We thank you, heroic mothers, for your invincible love! We thank you for your intrepid trust in God and in his love. We thank you for the sacrifice of your life … In the Paschal Mystery, Christ restores to you the gift you gave him. Indeed, he has the power to give you back the life you gave him as an offering”.112

If she was removed from the school, as she should have been, then the baby would have no reason for being in the school…

I respond with yet another of the Church’s teaching from Evangelium Vitae:

As the Letter of James admonishes us: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, ?Go in peace, be warmed and filled’, without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (2:14-17).

In our service of charity, we must be inspired and distinguished by a specific attitude: we must care for the other as a person for whom God has made us responsible. As disciples of Jesus, we are called to become neighbours to everyone (cf. Lk 10:29-37), and to show special favour to those who are poorest, most alone and most in need. In helping the hungry, the thirsty, the foreigner, the naked, the sick, the imprisoned-as well as the child in the womb and the old person who is suffering ornear death-we have the opportunity to serve Jesus. He himself said: “As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me” (Mt 25:40). Hence we cannot but feel called to account and judged by the ever relevant words of Saint John Chrysostom: “Do you wish to honour the body of Christ? Do not neglect it when you find it naked. Do not do it homage here in the church with silk fabrics only to neglect it outside where it suffers cold and nakedness”.113

***Where life is involved, the service of charity must be profoundly consistent. It cannot tolerate bias and discrimination, ***for human life is sacred and inviolable at every stage and in every situation; it is an indivisible good. We need then to “show care” for all life and for the life of everyone. Indeed, at an even deeper level, we need to go to the very roots of life and love.

The way I see it, it is outright SCANDALOUS to keep that teacher employed.

I disagree. I think it would be scandalous as well as illegal for a school to fire a woman because of her pregnancy. It would be inconsistent with the clear teachings of the Church, it could even lead a woman to choose abortion (statistics show that 78% of women choose abortion because of lack of support) if the woman has no way to pay for her prenatal care, delivery, and care for the child.

A 2004 survey by the Guttmacher Institute, a research organization that supports abortion rights but is cited by both sides in the abortion wars as having reliable data, indicated that 73 percent of those seeking an abortion were doing so because they could not afford to have a baby.

“We have to systematically eliminate the reasons that drive women to abortions, and the root causes are lack of resources and lack of support,” Foster says. "Women deserve both."http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Story?id=1641467&page=2

I do think, and I have stated this earlier in this thread, that if it’s true this teacher is cohabitating outside marriage with the father of her child then school was remiss in not firing her for her failure to live up to the ethics clause by cohabitating. Once she was pregnant, however, the rules changed and they can no longer fire her. Once she was pregnant they can’t legally or morally fire her for her pregnancy.

a co-habitating woman who wantonly flaunted the product of her sin(her baby).

This is just disgusting! to call a baby, a child of God “the product of sin”. It tells me all I need to know about you, Happy

 

[PaulinVA]

You consistently fail to recognize that this teacher is providing a heroic prolife example to all those around her in obedience to the law of God.

So, all of the young girls should go out and get pregnant and then they, too, can make a heroic pro life choice.

No, this woman will be remembered at the school for getting pregnant and not being married, not for making a heroic prolife stand.

I do think, and I have stated this earlier in this thread, that if it’s true this teacher is cohabitating outside marriage with the father of her child then school was remiss in not firing her for her failure to live up to the ethics clause by cohabitating. Once she was pregnant, however, the rules changed and they can no longer fire her. Once she was pregnant they can’t legally or morally fire her for her pregnancy.

Okay, this is good that there is some agreement. I get the impression that you have lived this and/or work in this area. Could this be what’s causing you to solely focus on the woman and her baby and not her students, and the rest of the students at the school?

It’s an interesting argument that by firing her she loses insurance coverage and will face struggles. Well, she can purchase COBRA coverage. Maybe be put on her boyfriend/partner’s plan. I don’t know. She signed an employment contract. She’s obviously in breach of it. What would you do? Being pregnant is not a free pass.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I think it could be more of a teaching moment than anything else. They could say to kids, it’s harder to have a baby when you’re not married, so don’t do it, but if you find yourself pregnant, don’t have an abortion. And regardless of how the baby came to be, she’s not allowed to be excited? I thought babies were blessings! Also, all the girls are going to care about is a baby, not how the baby came to be.

I don’t think it’s far to fire a teacher just because she’s pregnant and not married. Everyone says, “Oh, we could fire men too,” but it doesn’t work that way. It’s always the women that get fired.

Also, everyone sins. Do Catholic school teachers get fired for taking God’s name in vain? That’s a mortal sin. How about gossiping with others? Neglecting the poor? Those are sins too. Being pregnant is not a sin. How do you know this lady hasn’t confessed her sin of premarital sex. Or, God forbid, what if a woman was raped and got pregnant and happened to work in a Catholic school? Would you seriously fire her? Is she obligated to tell you that she was raped?

Everyone talks about being an “example for children.” We ALL FAIL MISERABLY at that! Regardless of whether the sin was sexual or not! It’s STILL wrong.

Maybe no one should work in a Catholic school. We’ll all fail the kids somehow, regardless of whether we’re pregnant or not.

 

[PaulinVA]

Everyone talks about being an “example for children.” We ALL FAIL MISERABLY at that! Regardless of whether the sin was sexual or not! It’s STILL wrong.

Maybe no one should work in a Catholic school. We’ll all fail the kids somehow, regardless of whether we’re pregnant or not.

Well, maybe I’M too close to this, but I happen to be married to a Catholic preschool teacher who is, indeed, a great example to all. If you knew her, you would feel privileged to have her teaching your children.

There are many, many, people who attempt to live up to the Gospel, right here and now in the early 21st century. The question here is not whether they sin - of course, we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God.

The question is whether they have made the major life choices in a way that sets them up to live the Gospel. The question is whether they pursue Truth every day. There are good examples, people living exemplary lives, all around us.

 

[KingAlfred]

RachelsAlumni,

Nice post.

What does it specifically have to do with allowing an unwed pregnant woman to teach at a Catholic school, in violation of her employment contract?

The only thing that I can conclude from your posts is that you think that the employment contract should not include a “follow Catholic teaching clause” and that the Catholic schools should hire anyone that comes in the door.

Sounds like the death of Catholic education.

Yeah…I tend to agree. What if other teachers do the same? The teacher isn’t ‘right’ for that environment.