Unnerving Our Father (hand holding) experience

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Actaeon said:
Again, this would make sense if the postures of the laity were considered “alterations” of the liturgy. If I were to take your strict position I would have to berate after mass anyone who had raised their hand to cover a sneeze for their abusive alteration of the liturgy through such EGREGIOUS posture change which was not allowed by the GIRM.
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My position is (obviously) not that strict. The distinction is that covering my mouth when sneezing is not intended to be a liturgical action, which is obviously not true of the groping that occurs during the Our Father. You’re saying that hand-holding is liturgically as significant as shifting in one’s seat, which is obviously not true – if it was no one would do it, much less think it’s important, much less get angry when the opportunity to hold hands is denied them.
Actaeon said:
And moreso, the GIRM itself, in the query and response section, states that

234b. QUERY: Some of the acts of reverence by both the celebrant and the people have fallen into disuse, for example, the profound bow to be made in place of the former genuflection at the words announcing the mystery of the incarnation in the Credo. Are such gestures still to be observed? **REPLY: Clearly people should express their faith, devotion, and reverence not only by words but also by gestures and posture. **

It then goes on to say that where gestures are proscribed they must be followed, and that care should be taken since the prescribe gestures are fewer and simpler… but one thing the query response does NOT do is prohibit gestures of personal reverence by the laity (though in another section it states that the prior roman missal cannot be used as justification to mandate certain personal gestures)
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Sacrosanctum Concilium furnishes the prohibition on unauthorized changes to the liturgy.
Actaeon said:
You are aware that a minor bow as a gesture of reverence was introduced by the GIRM because laity started the tradition based on Phil 2:10, right, and that it wasn’t mandated until 1274 AD, though it had been in practice for 1000 years before that time, right?
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There was virtually no uniform oversight of liturgy prior to Trent. There is today. There was no general Missal, so there were no general instructions to the Missal. There is today. There was no Sacrosanctum Concilium to prohibit alterations to the (non-existent) general Missal. There is today. QED.

If there was nothing to disobey then there is no disobedience. So the Mass existed in a state of flux in the past – it doesn’t today. Today there are clear expectations and guidelines governing our participation in the Mass. There is no even remotely generous way to interpret them such that hand-holding is permitted during the Our Father.
 
Actaeon said:
Now see, there is an honest post I can truly get behind… no claims of self-diagnosed neurosis about touching others, and no case of germophobia (a real disease, albeit overly self-diagnosed) cited as an excuse.
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I realize this is off-topic, but who said they were self-diagnosed, and what’s the difference if they were? Does that make their needs and aversions any less valid? Do we need a doctor’s note to have valid ‘excuse’ to not be subjected to physical contact that is at the least unwanted and unwelcome, if not (as for many with autism or Asperger’s) downright painful, physically and emotionally? Just say you can’t relate, not that our diagnosis, anxiety, or pain are not real or valid.

The solidarity and unity are attained–perfectly–through reception of the Eucharist. Not through fondling strangers you probably don’t recognize in another context. Maybe there should be a doctor’s note for the ‘excuse’ as to why people feel the need to make superficial, human-centered touchy-feely displays during Mass when we should be focused upon the Sacrifice on the altar.
 
pnewton said:
While I respect the disagreement over this issue, I have heard different canon lawyers form different opinions as to whether it is illicit. Now as there takes some explanation and logic to expain why it is illicit, I think that this must be no more than an opinion. When I combine that the Church has never stated this practice is illicit, it is used in so parishes and that those that hold it illicit do not like this practice, I am inclined to think that the desire that it be illicit might color the opinion that it is illicit.
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I’m not going to comment over whether it’s illicit or not, but I do find the automatic assumptions on either side very troubling.

Most people do NOT want to hold hands just because they are selfish extroverted innovaters who want to pretend to be ‘in charge’ by making up gestures and enforcing them on everybody. Really.

And most people do not want to AVOID holding hands because they are germaphobic snobs who secretly think everybody else is ‘not as good as they are’. Really.

Why aren’t we exercising Christian charity the way we used to --by assuming the ‘best’ of the other person???

My mother (nearly 83) still does this. If she’s in line at the store and the checkout person is rude or snappish, my mother always assumes that ‘she/he had a hard day’. IOW, she doesn’t assume that the behavior is directed at her personally. And she can think of reasons that, if they don’t excuse, at least EXPLAIN why that behavior might be taking place.

She doesn’t have to have the person say to her, “Oh, I’m sorry, but my son was ill last night and we’re running short shifted here so I’ve had to work for the last 12 hours and I can’t even call on the cell to hear from the sitter that my son’s doing better today”. She just figures that everybody is entitled to a bad day sometime, says a prayer for them, and goes on.

I just can’t get over the attitude that we would be expected to --EXPECTED TO!! in the middle of MASS, 'provide an explanation as to why we are doing, or not doing, an OPTIONAL GESTURE!!!

Is it really any business of any other person that I either reach out and shake hands, or do NOT do so? is anybody really ENTITLED to know whether I have arthritis so I don’t shake --as if the ONLY thing that excused me was an accepted physical EXCUSE? Is anybody entitled to know that I EXPECT to have my hand shaken because otherwise I’m going to think that YOU have a poor opinion of ME, or think I’m not as GOOD as you? How. . .decidedly unChristian such an attitude appears to me. . .
 
Actaeon said:
Now see, there is an honest post I can truly get behind… no claims of self-diagnosed neurosis about touching others, and no case of germophobia (a real disease, albeit overly self-diagnosed) cited as an excuse.
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I didn’t know I needed a note from my psychiatrist to get out of people touching me at Mass… :rolleyes:

Seriously though, we don’t know what’s going on with other people, and we need to assume the best intentions, particularly at Mass. I don’t think badly of those that hold hands during the Our Father. I just know the dirty looks I get when I won’t, or when I don’t shake hands with people. (thankfully not everyone reacts that way - it seems to be the minority reaction).
 
This topic evidently strikes a chord!! Don’t get me started on the ‘lift off’ part of raised arms. A casual observer would surmise that ‘for thine is the kingdom, etc’ is more important that the actual prayer of Our Father!
 
Seeker1961 said:
You clearly don’t mind holding hands, but not everyone in the universe does. To belittle us by essentially saying we aren’t praying hard enough or focusing on God enough is kind of rude.

I don’t like the holding/shaking hands thing, never have, never will. So go ahead and accuse me of not desiring God enough to overlook the fact that I think it’s silly and distracting. I think it’s a device designed to " build community" that comes off feeling artificial and forced-accept for the established cliques that already exist.
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👍 Where did it get started anyway? And another thing- just a minor distraction really, but- when the priest elevates the host and then the chalice and someone in the front pew loudly intones, “My Lord and My God!” Is that in the rubrics?
 
Lately I’ve just been clasping my hands in front of me and bowing my head as soon as we rise from the great Amen. That seems to work pretty well. I’m not being rude if I have my eyes closed, and it seems to be a physical cue that even the most persistent hand grabbers can read.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
It comes from Protestant churches.
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That’s what I’ve always figured. It might have come over with, “God is good?” “All the time!” But that doesn’t bother me much because it’s not done during Mass itself.
 
I know I mentioned this awhile back on another thread, but especially now that it’s football season in full swing, I half expect to see a leaping NFL touchdown celebratory chest bump during the “sign of peace.” I’m just sayin’
 
I know there are people in my little parish who are in various therapies that suppress their immune system and it is grim that they are forced into the embarrassing situation of having to fend off strangers’ groping them, knowing even the slightest pathogen from another is putting their lives at risk. And that’s not to mention the plethora of neurological disorders burgeoning in our time that make touchy-feely stuff excuciating; let alone the abuse victims who are edgy about unsolicited touch. I’d also like the Church to reconsider the common chalice at Communion. This is the twenty-first century? We did away with the common dipper at the town well under Eleanor Roosevelt’s tutelage. Maybe I’m extra sensitive about this because I just got back from taking somebody to the emergency room, and all the time I’ve spent tending people in a medical setting, and all the contamination I’ve seen from blood to feces in these sanitary settings, makes me very unsettled that we would be so palsy-walsy with strangers. Doesn’t fit with the medical model.

And I pity anybody who extends a hand to me as I keep chickens and think that it is, disease-wise, a dangerous business and I wouldn’t wish my paw on anybody, however scrupulously I scrub before Mass. I have no idea if the goop I use will decontaminate my hands I have just used to launch a chicken into the coop before going off to Mass. Give the Nixonian V with two fingers?

There are wondrous priests who kept old-style reverence, preserving Mass as peaceful and contemplative, sometimes at great sacrifice. My thanks to those priests, like Father Kaiser of Buckner, Missouri’s Church of the Santa Fe, who bypass all the touchy-feely stuff, including the “handshake” of peace, and roll right into the AGNUS DEI. Why should I be distracted by grab-grab-grab and then have to compose myself to contemplate that greatest of wonders voiced by John the Baptist, the perfect Lamb of God, slain before time began?
 
Faithdancer said:
I know I mentioned this awhile back on another thread, but especially now that it’s football season in full swing, I half expect to see a leaping NFL touchdown celebratory chest bump during the “sign of peace.” I’m just sayin’
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We already have people raising their arms over their heads at “for the kingdom and the power and the Glory are yours”, that looks like the touchdown sign to me! 😃 I don’t care about that, it doesn’t demand my involvement.

The “My Lord and My God” is the english translation of a Latin phrase that used to be said at the elevation. It was said in a whisper though…I never heard anyone say it out loud, but maybe the person is hard of hearing and doesn’t realize how loud they are being. 🤷

If you want to hold hands with your family and friends, if you want to hug and kiss them at the Sign of Peace, if you want to throw your hands in the air and say “Praise Jesus”-it’s not going to bother me. However, when you pull at MY hands to hold them (and yes, people DO this) or glare at me because I’m folding my hands, or sniff at me because I ended the conversation you wanted to start about where I work at the Sign of Peace (this happens a lot-I often come to Mass straight from work in my uniform) then you’re crossing the line.

I routinely work LONG hours and that hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament is probably the only one I’m going to get in a week. So, yes-I do want to spend time with Jesus and that is a priority to me over any person in the room. I’m not there to interact with anyone but Him. I have 167 hours in every week to interact with other people in my community.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
It comes from Protestant churches.
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what is your proof for that statement? For the most part, no one that seems to be very opposed to hand holding (which in the most part I see and have seen just going on between family members and friends) have come up with how it violates GIRM or proved that this is liturgical abuse. I grew up Methodist (high liturgy style) as well as have attended charismatic churches and have never seen hand holding going on and in fact, the charismatic churches I did attend did not even do Our Father as part of their services. What I do see on this thread is that hand holding with others during Our Father is disliked for various and personal reasons more than proving this is liturgical abuse. What come across which is more sad than anything is that Mass is considered a me and Jesus and don’t others attending Mass bother me. Individualism (me and Jesus) is more of a protestant idea than holding hands as a community in prayer. Yes, our focus in mass is on Jesus and receiving him in the Eucharist but we are gathered together to do this in community and as an expression of our community and union in a prayer that starts out with “Our Father” (not my Father) some parishes hold hands for the most part between family groups and friends. One desiring to do this or not is not any more devoted than anyone else. What is also sad is a number of statements about holding hand with “strangers”. While yes if we don’t personally know someone, they are by definition “a stranger” but because we all are attending Mass together as a community of believers, we should actually view others as fellow believers or brothers and sisters in Christ than thinking of them as “strangers” and how dare you touch me. Some of the attitudes expressed here are more protestant than the so called holding hands in Our Father is and to conveniently blame this as an import from protestantism is rather ridiculous. As some have shared, there are a number of ways to communicate with others around you that you do not desire to hold hands. There is nothing wrong with that at all and can be done which is polite and not so confrontational which is what I think happen with the original OP.
If one’s focus when attending Mass is Jesus and the Eucharist and that is truly your focus, any of the other little things and distractions that happen in Mass will not take away from encountering Jesus. Reverence begins in one’s heart and attitude.
 
The only reason I currently accept hand-holding is that I happen to be situated where I know everyone around me, know that they don’t come to Mass infected, know that their personal hygiene is good, and know that they won’t exercise a squeezing, crushing grip.

In groups of strangers I never engage in this. It’s one reason I choose to sit apart, and also why I close my eyes, bow my head, and clasp my hands in front of me during the prayer.

I’m grossed out by how other people, especially males, often do not wash their hands, and I’ve been injured many times in this forced “fellowship” which is not in itself a sign of charity, let alone sincerity and intimacy.

Let anyone on the thread consider me as rude as they choose to. Experience justifies my position. Sorry about that. 😉
 
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