Unstructured Thread...

[wisdomseeker]

And the 70?

And the Desposyni? (Acts 1:14, I Corinthinans 9:5 one of whom is leading in Acts 15).

(Ooops. I Corin. 9:5 lists Peter last )

Since you make much of “another was succeeded to his position” (sic), do you recognize only 12 bishops in the whole Church?

Answer this please.
were the apostles divided or according to Jesus they were one?

Meaning they all believe on the same thing. same teachings, same faith. they were the foundation of a Church. this Church is one not because there is only one single church. there are many churches but they are to have the same faith the same teachings everywhere they are.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Nicene. The whole Orthodox Catholic Church approved it.

Arians approved the “Apostles” Creed, as well as the Orthodox Catholics. Do you want to recite with the Arians?

The Nicene is the original Creed.

can you please post your OC creed on this thread?

 

[wisdomseeker]

The Definition of Faith.

(Found in the Acts, Session XVIII., L. and C., Concilia, Tom. VI., col. 1019.)

…These things, therefore, with all diligence and care having been formulated by us, we define that it be permitted to no one to bring forward, or to write, or to compose, or to think, or to teach a different faith. **Whosoever shall presume to compose **a different faith, or to propose, or teach, or hand to those wishing to be converted to the knowledge of the truth, from the Gentiles or Jews, or from any heresy, any different Creed; or to introduce a new voice or invention of speech to subvert these things which now have been determined by us, all these, if they be Bishops or clerics let them be deposed, the Bishops from the Episcopate, the clerics from the clergy; but if they be monks or laymen: let them be anathematized.

Yes this is correct. Only the Bishop of Rome the Pope has such and authority to depose heretics bishops.
But the Pope, only Jesus will depose heretical popes.

 

[VARC]

can you please post your OC creed on this thread?

This is the Nicene Creed in Greek as it was written at the 2nd Ecumenical Council

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων· φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο.

Τὸν δι ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα.

Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα.

Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς.

Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός.

Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.

Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν.

Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.

Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν.

Προσδοκῶ ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν.

Καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος.

Ἀμήν.

 

[VARC]

Here it is in Latin according to the Orthodox popes of Rome such as Leo III

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.

Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

 

[VARC]

And here is an modern english translation

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten from the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of the same substance as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is the Nicene Creed in Greek as it was written at the 2nd Ecumenical Council

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεόν, Πατέρα, Παντοκράτορα, ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων.

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων· φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο.

Τὸν δι ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς Παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα.

Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα.

Καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρα κατὰ τὰς Γραφάς.

Καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Πατρός.

Καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος.

Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν, τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον, τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον, τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν.

Εἰς μίαν, Ἁγίαν, Καθολικὴν καὶ Ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν.

Ὁμολογῶ ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν.

Προσδοκῶ ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν.

Καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος.

Ἀμήν.

sorry can’t read this.

 

[wisdomseeker]

And here is an modern english translation

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten from the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, of the same substance as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

so the whole problem is because Jesus was added as the Holy Spirit proceeds ?
this cause the dissagreement between the churches?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Ok let’s say your enterpretation here is right. let’s say that the pope changed the creed. that does not prove that the CC stop existing,
" THIS CHURCH WILL RULE FROM ONE CITY AND REIGN INTO ALL NATIONS."

It didn’t stop existing. We’re still here, and ever shall be.

 

[VARC]

so the whole problem is because Jesus was added as the Holy Spirit proceeds ?
this cause the dissagreement between the churches?

This may not be a big deal to you but changing the Creed to read “the Holy Spirit proceeds form the Father and the son” is not only a violation of the canons of the Catholic Church but was also considered intolerable heresy by St Photius and St Gregory Palamas, both canonized saints of the eastern catholic churches. According to the canons of the Catholic Church, the bishop of Rome overstepped his authority by making the change. In schism with the rest of the Church, the Pope was unchallenged by anyone in the west which led to the papal pretensions of universal jurisdiction and infallibility.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Answer this please.
were the apostles divided or according to Jesus they were one?

Meaning they all believe on the same thing. same teachings, same faith. they were the foundation of a Church. this Church is one not because there is only one single church. there are many churches but they are to have the same faith the same teachings everywhere they are.

This Orthodox Catholic Church you mean? She is One, as the Apostles were (actually, are) One.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

can you please post your OC creed on this thread?

I believe in one God the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the Father.
And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there shall be no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, Who proceedes from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the prophets.
In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church; I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins; I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen.

 

[Hastrman]

It didn’t stop existing. We’re still here, and ever shall be.

Well, technically, yes, since I would argue that all the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are that Church.

It just sounds to me like Alexandria is bucking to assume the position of Rome as defined by Roman Catholics, rather than continuing the Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) tradition of “First among equals”. Which title has never belonged to any but the See of Peter in Rome, so you’re flying against tradition even if that’s all you’re after.

But you can’t mean that, can you?

Anyway, you sure do bandy around the term “Ultramontanism” a lot. You do know that it actually means, “The Head of the Church ought to be independent of worldly control and, in his own sphere, supreme.”

The opposite position is “Caesaropapism,” placing the state in control over the Church.

So unless you’d like me to call you a Caesaropapist, kindly stop misusing the word Ultramontanist. You like being accused of the Nestorianism your forefathers flatly renounced, by people who just misunderstand the terms?

 

[wisdomseeker]

This may not be a big deal to you but changing the Creed to read “the Holy Spirit proceeds form the Father and the son” is not only a violation of the canons of the Catholic Church but was also considered intolerable heresy by St Photius and St Gregory Palamas, both canonized saints of the eastern catholic churches. According to the canons of the Catholic Church, the bishop of Rome overstepped his authority by making the change. In schism with the rest of the Church, the Pope was unchallenged by anyone in the west which led to the papal pretensions of universal jurisdiction and infallibility.

In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and word was God.He was with God in the beginnig. Through him ALL things came into being.

Mary the Mother of God. if we believe that Jesus is God, than the Creed is right to say from the Father and the Son. it is a mystery to me. Who can know the mind of God?

The father loves the son and has entrusted everything to his hands.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This Orthodox Catholic Church you mean? She is One, as the Apostles were (actually, are) One.

If anyone hate his brother and say he loves God he is a liar.
what is the problem between the Russian Church and the constantinopla church?

 

[VARC]

Anyway, you sure do bandy around the term “Ultramontanism” a lot. You do know that it actually means, “The Head of the Church ought to be independent of worldly control and, in his own sphere, supreme.”

The opposite position is “Caesaropapism,” placing the state in control over the Church.

So unless you’d like me to call you a Caesaropapist, kindly stop misusing the word Ultramontanist. You like being accused of the Nestorianism your forefathers flatly renounced, by people who just misunderstand the terms?

Ultramontanism literally means “over the mountains”. Ultramontanism consists of asserting the superiority of Papal authority over the authority of local temporal or spiritual hierarchies, including the local bishop. The term was used by French and German bishops to refer to the pope illicitly exetending his authority “over” the Alps. The term has nothing to do with episcopal independence from secular authority.

 

[VARC]

if we believe that Jesus is God, than the Creed is right to say from the Father and the Son. it is a mystery to me.

You have no right to alter the Creed of the Catholic Church because you think its “right”. A few holy saints would disagree with your opinion. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with them to understand the Orthodox theological objection. Start with St Photius. It may prove providential. His feast is tommorrow

 

[wisdomseeker]

This Orthodox Catholic Church you mean? She is One, as the Apostles were (actually, are) One.

Suppose that is true. I never heard of OC until 2 years ago.
what do you suggest we do?

 

[VARC]

Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with them to understand the Orthodox theological objection. Start with St Photius. It may prove providential. His feast is tommorrow

 

[jam070406]

You have no right to alter the Creed of the Catholic Church because you think its “right”. A few holy saints would disagree with your opinion. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with them to understand the Orthodox theological objection. Start with St Photius. It may prove providential. His feast is tommorrow

Fallacy! A few Holy saints, including Eastern saints, agreed that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son.

**Epiphanius of Salamis **

“The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

**Basil The Great **

"Through the Son, who is one, he [the Holy Spirit] is joined to the Father, one is one, and by himself completes the Blessed Trinity (The Holy Spirit 18:45 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

“The Holy Spirit, when he proceeds from the father and the Son, does not separate himself from the Father and does not separate himself form the Son” (ibid., 1:2:120).

**Gregory of Nyssa **

“[The] Father conveys the notion of unoriginate, unbegotten, and Father always; the only-begotten Son is understood along with the Father, coming from him but inseparably joined to him. Through the Son and with the Father, immediately and before any vague and unfounded concept interposes between them, the Holy Spirit is also perceived conjointly” (Against Eunomius 1 [A.D. 382]).

**Cyril of Alexandria **

“Since the Holy Spirit when he is in us effects our being conformed to God, and he actually proceeds from the Father and Son, it is abundantly clear that he is of the divine essence, in it in essence and proceeding from it” (Treasury of the Holy Trinity, thesis 34 [A.D. 424]).

Gregory the Great taught the Filioque and Photius was aware of this and tried to excuse him (in his Mystagogia); Leo the Great taught the Filioque and wrote to the Spanish Church about the teaching a few years before he wrote his definitive Tome on Christology to the East. (Letter: Quam laudabiliter in 447: DS284).