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Isa_Almisry said:
For starters, read the decrees and acts of the Ecumenical Councils.

And if for any reason you are interested in the Orthodox Catholic Church, stop by for a Divine Liturgy.
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i think you misunderstood my question.

what should we do to bring the union of the churches? this is my question.
 
jam070406 said:
Fallacy!
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We’ve been over these:
The Council of Chalcedon in 451, attended by the Eastern Bishops, ended its discussion with the unanimous cry, “Peter has spoken by Leo,” when the Pope’s decision was given.
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The tome had been examined by a committee of a couple hundred, who found it accorded with Orthodox Catholic doctrine. The Council did not follow Leo’s directions on how to conduct itself, and the Fathers wrote their own Definition of Faith.
A century and a half later Pope Gregory I could still write, “Who doubts that the Church of Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See?”
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In the same correspondance he claims that the EP knows this, while also calling the EP the precursor of the antichrist. As I have posted, the only time, outside of Chick publications, that I have seen the Antichrist cited as a Church Father: St. Gregory can’t cite EP John and trash him at the same time. He also writes to the Pope of Alexandria, and claims that Alexandria, Antioch and Rome are “One Petrine See.”
No one then doubted it; and no one disputed it until Photius came along in 867 to plunge the East into schism.
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St. Photius did nothing of the sort.

Rome had been denying Constantinople’s position for centuries. The other Sees simply ignored Rome’s promouncements on the matter.
The patriarch of Constantinople, and all the Eastern Bishops signed the formula of Hormisdas, who was Pope from 514 to 523.
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That formula contained these words, “We follow the Apostolic See in everything and teach all its laws. I hope to be in that one Communion taught by the Apostolic See in which is the whole, real and perfect solidity of the Christian religion.”

It begins
The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers. For it is impossible that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, who said, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” [Matthew 16:18], should not be verified. And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied.
hometown.aol.com/dtbrown/page2.html

In just over a century, the Sixth Ecumenical Council would anathematize the Pope of Rome. How do you reconcile that?
 
jam070406 said:
Yep. The filioque has been used as an excuse to further schism.
And it’s only on the side of the East that this guilt falls. Even after many East and West have agreed that we profess the same understanding. This is truly sinful and goes directly against Jesus prayer “that they may be one.”
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Who agreed that we “profess” the same undrestanding?
 
wisdomseeker said:
THE FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL 1215:

“Although we would wish to cherish and honour the Greeks who in
our days are returning to the obedience of the apostolic see, by preserving their customs and rites as much as we can in the Lord, nevertheless we neither want nor ought to defer to them in matters which bring danger to souls and detract from the church’s honour. For, after the Greek church together with certain associates and supporters withdrew from the obedience of the apostolic see, the Greeks began to detest the Latins so much that, among other wicked things which they committed out of contempt for them, when Latin priests celebrated on their altars they would not offer sacrifice on them until they had washed them, as if the altars had been defiled thereby. The Greeks even had the temerity to rebaptize those baptized by the Latins; and some, as we are told, still do not fear to do this. Wishing therefore to remove such a great scandal from God’s church, we strictly order, on the advice of this sacred council, that henceforth they do not presume to do such things but rather conform themselves like obedient sons to the holy Roman church, their mother, so that there may be one flock and one shepherd. If anyone however does dare to do such a thing, let him be struck with the sword of excommunication and be deprived of every ecclesiastical office and benefice.”
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Another example of caesaropapism.
 
wisdomseeker said:
and how do they come with the conclusion that the CC is the schismatic church when they are the ones to dissagree with the teachings of the church?
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We pass the teaching on as the Fathers have handed them over, including over filioque innovation.
 
wisdomseeker said:
THE FOUTH LATERAN COUNCIL 1215

Renewing the ancient privileges of the
patriarchal sees, we decree, with the approval of this sacred universal synod, that after the Roman church, which through the Lord’s disposition has a primacy of ordinary power over all other churches inasmuch as it is the mother and mistress of all Christ’s faithful, the church of Constantinople shall have the first place, the church of Alexandria the second place, the church of Antioch the third place, and the church of Jerusalem the fourth place, each maintaining its own rank. Thus after their pontiffs have received from the Roman pontiff the pallium, which is the sign of the fullness of the pontifical office, and have taken an oath of fidelity and obedience to him they may lawfully confer the pallium on their own suffragans, receiving from them for themselves canonical profession and for the Roman church the promise of obedience. They may have a standard of the Lord’s cross carried before them anywhere except in the city of Rome or wherever there is present the supreme pontiff or his legate wearing the insignia of the apostolic dignity. In all the provinces subject to their jurisdiction let appeal be made to them, when it is necessary, except for appeals made to the apostolic see, to which all must humbly defer.’
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That’s what you call revisionism
 
jam070406 said:
Fallacy! It’s been shown that you must agree with the chair of Peter, which is the See of Rome. The final decision in faith and morals is and always has been from the Apostolic See of Rome.
“Rome has spoken”. Placing yourself outside the Church makes your arguments moot.
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Only if you buy the Ultramontanist equation pope of Rome=Church.

When has it been “shown”? I know we have Optatus’ quote, which comes with an incorrect line of bishops, Augustine’s statements which he later retracted, etc.

The Pope of Rome had no impute in the composition and promulgation of the Creed, until he disobeyed the canons of the Fathers and composed another Faith. So much for Faith and Morals emenating from Rome.
 
jam070406 said:
Fallacy!
The Bishop of Rome is not just ANY Bishop.

Nonsequitor.
Rome HAS kept the “true faith”
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The Sixth Ecumenical Council judged otherwise. VARC was kind enough to post relevant portions.
 
jam070406 said:
btw wisdomseeker, A DL can be found at any Eastern Catholic (in communion with Rome) parish in your area. 👍

I myself, attend a Melkite DL from time to time. 👍
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I’m sorry. I thought he asked about the OC. I didn’t see that it was an “Eastern Catholic (in communion with Rome).” You have a seperate forum for that sort of thing.:rolleyes:
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Only if you buy the Ultramontanist equation pope of Rome=Church.

When has it been “shown”? I know we have Optatus’ quote, which comes with an incorrect line of bishops, Augustine’s statements which he later retracted, etc.

The Pope of Rome had no impute in the composition and promulgation of the Creed, until he disobeyed the canons of the Fathers and composed another Faith. So much for Faith and Morals emenating from Rome.
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Pope doesn’t = Church. Pope = final authority. Pope says Filioque ok, Filoque ok.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Who agreed that we “profess” the same undrestanding?
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this makes a good a point.
The Lord knew about dissagreements among brothers in the church. so He left a leader St Peter and successores to bring peace and truth among them.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
I’m sorry. I thought he asked about the OC. I didn’t see that it was an “Eastern Catholic (in communion with Rome).” You have a seperate forum for that sort of thing.:rolleyes:
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Perhaps you should have directed him there.
 
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