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Mickey said:
The Church is where heaven meets earth at each Divine Liturgy–in preparation for our eternal home in the Kingdom of heaven. Satan is our enemy and his arrows are injurous to us. Inflamed passions are our derangement.
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still that does not answer my question. there is a true Church which is the Kingdom of God. this church is to safeguard and teach the truth about God to all men. that is why Jesus chose a few men for this purpose. there was Jesus and twelve apostles. Jesus left. there was Peter and twelve apostles. for the a 1000 years there was one Church. then the schism, then the reformation or revolution whichever you want to call it. don’t you agree that any entity must have a leader and Jesus being the leader no longer visible would choose somebody visible for visible men to follow? the Bible says: the Church is the pillar the bullwark of the Truth.
 
wisdomseeker said:
for a 1000 years there was one Church. then the schism, then the reformation or revolution whichever you want to call it.
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The protestant reformation has proved to be a thorn in the side for the RCC. The Orthodox never had to deal with such a phenomenon.
wisdomseeker said:
don’t you agree that any entity must have a leader and Jesus being the leader no longer visible would choose somebody visible for visible men to follow?
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Yes. The bishops.
wisdomseeker said:
the Bible says: the Church is the pillar the bullwark of the Truth.
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Yes.

My brother in Christ: I think you are trying to ask me to tell you where is the true Church. Is it the RCC? Is it the Orthodox Church? Is it any of the vast number of protestant denominations? I can only tell you that I am confident that the Holy Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ–the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church that is mentioned in the creed. Do I say that the Roman Catholic Church is a false Church? No. I was baptised and grew in the faith through the Roman Catholic Church. Do I say that the protestants are condemned? No. I know many God loving protestant Christians who are my dear brothers in Christ. We all have a path to follow. May your pilgrimage toward eternity be a blessed one. Peace be unto you and your family.

Prayers and blessings,
Mickey
 
Mickey said:
The protestant reformation has proved to be a thorn in the side for the RCC. The Orthodox never had to deal with such a phenomenon.

Yes. The bishops.
Yes.

My brother in Christ: I think you are trying to ask me to tell you where is the true Church. Is it the RCC? Is it the Orthodox Church? Is it any of the vast number of protestant denominations? I can only tell you that I am confident that the Holy Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ–the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church that is mentioned in the creed. Do I say that the Roman Catholic Church is a false Church? No. I was baptised and grew in the faith through the Roman Catholic Church. Do I say that the protestants are condemned? No. I know many God loving protestant Christians who are my dear brothers in Christ. We all have a path to follow. May your pilgrimage toward eternity be a blessed one. Peace be unto you and your family.

Prayers and blessings,
Mickey
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oh brother the truth is you don’t know for sure. we believe pretty much in the same things. pride and desobedience to authority has separated us.

“There is nothing more serious than the sacrilege of schism because there is no just cause for severing the unity of the Church.”
St. Augustine, Treatise On Baptism Against the Donatists, Bk 5, Ch. 1, A.D. 400

“Ignatius…to the church also which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans, 1:1, A.D. 110

It is possible, then, for every Church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the Apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times…But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3, 3, 1-2, c. AD 190

The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’…On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” [see endnote]
St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church, 1st edition, A.D. 251
 
Mickey said:
The protestant reformation has proved to be a thorn in the side for the RCC. The Orthodox never had to deal with such a phenomenon.

Yes. The bishops.
Yes.

My brother in Christ: I think you are trying to ask me to tell you where is the true Church. Is it the RCC? Is it the Orthodox Church? Is it any of the vast number of protestant denominations? I can only tell you that I am confident that the Holy Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ–the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church that is mentioned in the creed. Do I say that the Roman Catholic Church is a false Church? No. I was baptised and grew in the faith through the Roman Catholic Church. Do I say that the protestants are condemned? No. I know many God loving protestant Christians who are my dear brothers in Christ. We all have a path to follow. May your pilgrimage toward eternity be a blessed one. Peace be unto you and your family.

Prayers and blessings,
Mickey
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“(T)hey have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: “I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.” And the vessel of divine election himself said: “If ye have forgiven anything to any one, I forgive also, for what I have forgiven I have done it for your sakes in the person of Christ.”
St. Ambrose of Milan, On Penance, Book One, Ch. VII, v. 33, c. A.D. 390.

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, 3.2, ca. A.D. 110

“There is nothing more serious than the sacrilege of schism because there is no just cause for severing the unity of the Church.”
St. Augustine, Treatise On Baptism Against the Donatists, Bk 5, Ch. 1, A.D. 400

“With false bishops appointed for themselves, they dare even set sail and carry their letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church, in which sacerdotal unity (priestly unity) has its source; nor do they take thought that these are Romans, whose faith was praised by the Apostle, to whom heretical faith cannot have access.”

no offense brother. just a few quotes from those that lived very close to Jesus time. and were caring on the faith comanded by Jesus and the apostles. God bless you.
 
St Ambrose
He, then, who before was silent, to teach us that we ought not to repeat the words of the impious, this one, I say, when he heard, ‘But who do you say I am,’ immediately, not unmindful of his station, exercised his primacy, that is, the primacy of confession, not of honor; the primacy of belief, not of rank. This, then, is Peter, who has replied for the rest of the Apostles; rather, before the rest of men. And so he is called the foundation, because he knows how to preserve not only his own but the common foundation…Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter’s flesh, but of his faith, that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.’ But his confession of faith conquered hell. And this confession did not shut out one heresy, for, since the Church like a good ship is often buffeted by many waves, the foundation of the Church should prevail against all heresies (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1963), Saint Ambrose, Theological and Dogmatic Works, The Sacrament of the Incarnation of Our Lord IV.32-V.34, pp. 230-231).
 
St Augustine****
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).
 
St Cyprian of Carthage

Certainly the other Apostles also were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship both of honour and power; but a commencement is made from unity, that the Church may be set before as one; which one Church, in the Song of Songs, doth the Holy Spirit design and name in the Person of our Lord: My dove, My spotless one, is but one; she is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her (Cant. 9:6) (A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1844), Cyprian, On The Unity of the Church 3, p. 133).
 
Mickey said:
Papa.
I believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. And I believe in the Apostolic succession of bishops. But I do not believe that “one” bishop (Rome) is the supreme infallible pontiff by which all others must submit.
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Hi Mickey,

If according to you, the Orthodox Church doesn’t have a "pope’ figure, maybe you can explain what the Orthodox term, “Primus inter pares***” (Latin),"first among equal" means, isn’t this essentially a “pope”? The Pope of the Orthodox Church?*

Isn’t the Patriarch of Constantinople, essentially the leader of the Orthodox Church and essentially the “pope” of the Orthodox Church?

He, the Orthodox Patriarch, like the Roman Catholic Pope is the “Bishop over all the other Bishops”, hence he is the person over all of the followers here on earth, within the Church that Christ (God) founded and is the Supreme Leader of…

Who is “His All-Holiness”, Patriarch BARTHOLOMEW I?

This sounds a lot like a “pope” to me?

Isn’t “first among equals” just a play on words, technically the Roman Catholic Pope could be considered the “first among equals”.

Search result for Patriarch Bartholomew I, found at the web site of The Orthodox Church in American.


Bartholomew I and Pope Benedict XVI

It is my understanding that you too are Catholic and one day we will all be One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Please correct me if my comments are in error.

God Bless You,

**Jimmy **
 
Mickey said:
No offence to you either, my brother in Christ.

Slava Isusu Christu!
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so many things said yet you chose to ignore all of them all your quotes does nothing but to prove that peter is the chosen one to be the leader. wether you like or not. the OT testifies about who holds the key of the Kingdom. therefore the NT testifies who is to hold the keys given by Christ the head of the Church. you can not possibly know what is true only what you perceive to be the truth to you. if you pay attention you will see in the NT the special relationship between Jesus and Peter. i am not saying the Peter was perfect. it doesnot matter to Jesus. what matters is the there is a special relationship between Jesus and Peter. when it came to pay the taxes. what was said by Jesus to Peter? brother my intention is not for you to leave your church. just for you to focus. not just read the Bible but to understand what is really going as history develops.
 
wisdomseeker said:
How can that be? the RCC also claims the same thing.
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He believes that God’s Church stalled into one pre-2nd millenia form and that it’s “not” a living organism that evolves as Scriptures reveals itself more and more to mankind.

As for the Orthodox “not” changing, that’s misleading.

For example, they broke away from The Church. That’s a change from “orthodox” Christianity.

If they were the original Church, they wouldn’t have broken off from us, but would’ve kicked “us” out.

Jesus gave Peter the authority to lead His Church, yet they refuse to accept the scripture as it is written. That’s another change from “orthodox” Christianity.

Yet, they kept The Holy Bible that The Catholic Church created. :confused:

I guess, without any authority "in’ their Church, they could do whatever they want to.

Saint Andrew must be turning over in Heaven right now.

Once they broke off from us, like The Protestants, they even had “schisms” amongst themselves.
 
Will the real “Orthodox” Church please stand up?

Is “this” what you call “not” changing?

“Not” changing would’ve mean complete unity to one Church.

Do these Churches have different rules?

If so, “which” Church is “The” Orthodox Church?​

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church#Early_Church

Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
Finnish Orthodox Church (autonomous)
Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church (autonomous)
Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America
Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese in the USA
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA
Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe
Episcopal Vicariate of Great Britain and Ireland
Mount Athos
Belorussian Council of Orthodox Churches in North America
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain (includes Ireland)
Archdiocese in Italy and Malta
Archdiocese in Australia
13 other small metropolises outside its canonical territory: Austria, Belgium, Argentina, Canada, France, Germany, Hong Kong, the Korean Orthodox Church, Mexico and Central America, New Zealand, Scandinavia, Spain and Portugal, and Switzerland
Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria
African Orthodox groups in the African Continent
Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America (autonomous)
Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, New Zealand, and All Oceania
Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
Church of Mount Sinai (autonomous)
Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem in North and South America
Russian Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) (de-facto autonomous)
Moldovan Orthodox Church (territorial jurisdiction contested by the Romanian Church)
Metropolis of Western Europe (proposed, but not instituted)
Japanese Orthodox Church (autonomy not universally recognized[citation needed])
Belarusian exarchate
Estonian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate)
Latvian Orthodox Church
Hungarian diocese
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (autonomous; union completed on May 17, 2007.)
Serbian Orthodox Church
Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric (autonomous)
Metropolitanate of Zagreb, Ljubljana and All Italy (Croatia, Slovenia, Italy)
Metropolitanate of Montenegro and the Littoral (Montenegro)
Metropolitanate of Dabar-Bosna (Bosnia-Herzegovina)
Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA and Canada
Bishopric in Australia and New Zealand
Bishopric in Britain and Scandinavia (Great Britain, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark)
Bishopric of Buda (Hungary, Czech Republic, and Slovakia)
Bishopric in Central Europe (Germany, Austria, and Switzerland)
Bishopric in Timişoara (Romania)
Bishopric in Western Europe (France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Spain)
Romanian Orthodox Church
Metropolis of Bessarabia (autonomous, with the rank of an exarchate, i.e. having the right to have parishes outside its canonical jurisdiction – de facto has in Russia and USA; territorial jurisdiction contested by the Russian Church)
Metropolis in France, Western and Southern Europe (British Islands, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy)
Metropolis in Germany and Central Europe (Germany, Northern and Central Europe)
Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America and Canada (USA, Canada, Argentina, Venezuela)
Romanian Orthodox Bishopric Dacia Felix (in Serbia)
Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Bulgarian Eastern Orthodox Church Diocese of America, Canada and Australia
Diocese in Central and Western Europe
Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church
Church of Cyprus
Church of Greece
Polish Orthodox Church
Albanian Orthodox Church
Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church
Orthodox Church in America (recognized as autocephalous only by the Russian, Bulgarian, Georgian, Polish, and Czech-Slovak Churches)
Orthodox Church in America Albanian Archdiocese
Orthodox Church in America Bulgarian Diocese
Romanian Orthodox Episcopate in America
Orthodox Church in America Parishes in Australia

Orthodox Churches and communities not in communion with others
Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Bulgarian Alternative Synod
Orthodox Church in Italy
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Montenegrin Orthodox Church
Russian True Orthodox Church
Turkish Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchate)
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America

[edit] Old Believers
Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church (Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy)
Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church (Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy)
Russian Old-Orthodox Church (Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy)
Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church (Pomortsy)

Old Calendarist
Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece
Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians, USA
Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)
Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church
Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Old Calendar Syrian/Assyrian Orthodox Church

Defunct churches
Croatian Orthodox Church
Chinese Orthodox Church
 
Know what’s funny about this Orthodox Christian that slams The Catholic Church and our 2,000 year old traditions?

The very same Crusades that we are vilified for were begun why? Because even though they left us, we were the ones they called for help with the Muslim incursion into Orthodox Christian lands.

If it wasn’t for The Catholic Church, would the Orthodox Church even still be around today?

:knight1:

youtube.com/watch?v=Cg8dHletWKA

First Crusade 1095-1099
In March 1095 at the Council of Piacenza, ambassadors sent by Byzantine Emperor Alexius I called for help with defending his empire against the Seljuk Turks. Later that year, at the Council of Clermont, Pope Urban II called upon all Christians to join a war against the Turks, promising those who died in the endeavor would receive immediate remission of their sins.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades#First_Crusade_1095-1099
 
2ndGen said:
He believes that God’s Church stalled into one pre-2nd millenia form and that it’s “not” a living organism that evolves as Scriptures reveals itself more and more to mankind.

As for the Orthodox “not” changing, that’s misleading.

For example, they broke away from The Church. That’s a change from “orthodox” Christianity.

If they were the original Church, they wouldn’t have broken off from us, but would’ve kicked “us” out.

Jesus gave Peter the authority to lead His Church, yet they refuse to accept the scripture as it is written. That’s another change from “orthodox” Christianity.

Yet, they kept The Holy Bible that The Catholic Church created. :confused:

I guess, without any authority "in’ their Church, they could do whatever they want to.

Saint Andrew must be turning over in Heaven right now.

Once they broke off from us, like The Protestants, they even had “schisms” amongst themselves.
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well said. for those blinded by sins may not be allowed to see the whole truth. for it is hidden from them until they repent and are forgiven.
 
wisdomseeker said:
well said. for those blinded by sins may not be allowed to see the whole truth. for it is hidden from them until they repent and are forgiven.
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I love The Orthodox Church. I never saw them as “not” Catholic.

However, I will “not” have my Church slandered neither by any of them, by any Protestant, by any Atheist, Agnostic, Satanist, or anybody.

This to me is a case of a “member” not being representative of what their Church is (like “me” when I get out of hand 😃 ).

Never the less, I will “not” allow mistruths to be stated about our Faith.

👍
 
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