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wisdomseeker:
and what creed is that?

The altered creed with the Filioque
 
jam070406 said:
Or the RCC continued to be the Church led into all Truth by the Holy Spirit .
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Fallacy. Begging the question. You need to establish that with proof instead of just asserting it as truth. I’ve alraedy establish that Rome left the church by altering the creed. Start there.
 
VARC said:
and what creed is that?
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The altered creed with the Filioque

we have both creeds and none differ from each other. just one is shorter than the other but the content is the same.
 
VARC said:
Fallacy. Begging the question. You need to establish that with proof instead of just asserting it as truth. I’ve alraedy establish that Rome left the church by altering the creed. Start there.
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You established no such thing. Nice try.
 
VARC said:
and what creed is that?
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The altered creed with the Filioque

To the CC was given the authority to make decisions. the Spirit reveal to the church is how to enterpret God’ s word. if the creed had to change something that may not have been right before then so be it. the dissagreements amongs those within the churches is what has led many ashtrays. because they want to be the ones to decide what is true what is not.
 
VARC said:
Fallacy. Begging the question. You need to establish that with proof instead of just asserting it as truth. I’ve alraedy establish that Rome left the church by altering the creed. Start there.
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You know that by that argument (the one of “not” changing anything ever when The Holy Spirit reveals more truths to The Church), we wouldnt’ believe that Jesus is The Son of God because the Doctrine on The Divinity of Christ took hundreds of years to settle.

So when was a Christian supposed to begin believing in Jesus’ Divinity? Before or after The Doctrine was revealed?
 
"If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built,
has he still confidence that he is in the Church?”
Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text),4
A.D. 251

Now, was The Orthodox “in” on this belief if we were supposedly “one”?

How could you profess that, then,
900 years later deny Peter as The Apostle that The Church is founded on?

How can you claim The Church Fathers when by their words you are condemned?

This must give you anurysms.
 
VARC said:
and what creed is that?
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The altered creed with the Filioque

“We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord. the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. with the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.”

what is wrong with that? do you believe in the Trinity?
 
2ndGen said:
"If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?”
Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text),4
A.D. 251

Now, was The Orthodox “in” on this belief if we were supposedly “one”?

How could you profess that, then, 900 years later deny Peter as The Apostle that The Church is founded on?

How can you claim The Church Fathers when by their words you are condemned?

This must give you anurysms.
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I’m sure you’ll probably get the ole “the chair of Peter is in Antioch since he went there first” line. That’s been tossed about a few times on these threads.
 
jam070406 said:
I’m sure you’ll probably get the ole “the chair of Peter is in Antioch since he went there first” line. That’s been tossed about a few times on these threads.
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It’s not where he started, but where he ended up. 👍

And I have a ton of proof that he ended up in Rome.

:highprayer:
 
2ndGen said:
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
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This doesn’t say anything about the bishop of Rome. It is reffering to any orthodox bishop in a given area. Actually a vindication of Orthodoxy.
2ndGen said:
The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).
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This doesn’t prove that Rome is the catholic church. The Orthodox Church is also referred to as the Catholic Church in the East.
2ndGen said:
No, the “true” Church is identified by who it is founded on…
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1 Cor

I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[a]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into** the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
2ndGen said:
“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven…’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).
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Since both Tertullian and Origen were not canonized because their Orthodoxy was suspect, I do not accept them as authorities in these matters**
 
2ndGen said:
“’…thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ … It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness…If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“…folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid…” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).
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Fallacy. Stacking the deck. You do not quote the entirety of what Cyprian has wrote concerning the Rock of Peter.

Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honor of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: ‘I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so **that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers **(emphasis added).
2ndGen said:
“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church…” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).
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This doesn’t prove that Rome is the catholic church. You’re reading your bias into it
2ndGen said:
The Church that created the creed has the authority to do what it wants “with” the creed, adding unto it, deleting from it.
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That’s right. The CHURCH not the bishop of Rome.
2ndGen said:
To use the Creed as an excuse to leave The Church is like someone not reporting a crime until 5 days later. The first thing the cops are going to ask you is why did you wait 5 days to report the crime.
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Fallacy. Begging the question. You have yet to establish that it was not Rome who left the church.

Fallacy. False analogy
Things do go so quickly in the 11th century. Rome changed the Creed in 1014. Forty years isn’t a bad turnaround for the 1000s.

Come on, you left us because you didn’t want to submit to the Latin Pope then after denouncing the Papacy, you guys went and created your own Papacy!

Fallacy. Begging the question…again

Gotta go for now. We’ll pick this up later…
 
jam070406 said:
I’m sure you’ll probably get the ole “the chair of Peter is in Antioch since he went there first” line. That’s been tossed about a few times on these threads.
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"none of them; none of them is truly Catholic and being Catholic is the chief family trait by which I’m identified. “the Church of the Christian religion is called Catholic, not only by her own members but even by our enemies; for when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, they willy-nilly call her nothing else but Catholic for they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” St. Augustine.

do i need to say more?
 
jam070406 said:
I’m sure you’ll probably get the ole “the chair of Peter is in Antioch since he went there first” line. That’s been tossed about a few times on these threads.
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this is a problem for you, since you dont believe in the papacy of Peter.
 
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