Unstructured Thread...

[Isa_Almisry]

Yep!

That’s what I said.

Check him out trying to take credit for what The Catholic Church did!

Next thing you know, they’ll be trying to claim that they canonized The Bible too.

Wrote it too.

Btw, did your girlfriend tell you “Catholic” is also a Greek word?

And while we’re at it, “Bible” too.

 

[wisdomseeker]

GOOD MORNING EVERYBODY. LET’S HAVE A BLESSED DAY/-]

 

[Isa_Almisry]

(Watch how easy this is…)

Show me where in History The Orthodox Church existed “before” 1054 AD.

And, if The Catholic Church left The Catholic Church, how was it that she ended up with the title “Catholic” while 4 other Churches ended up with the new and innovative title of “Orthodox”?

That’s like a wife taking an ex-husband’s last name and having the court not allow him to use it anymore!

No, it’s like the wife using the ex-husband’s last name after she ran off. I know that one personally.

That’s like 4 kids going to the principle’s office and saying that one kid bullied them and stole their lunch money!

Happens. Did the one kid have gun?

One Church conquored another one in 1098, massacred their way into another one in 1099 and sacked another in 1204, invaded the fourth in 1217. For each of them that one kid set up other churches to replace the ones there, which didn’t last. They didn’t steal the lunch money, but they looted relics, which are only now being returned.

Who was that? Inquiring minds want to know.

I’ll be reciting in my Orthodox church parish the Creed (the original, unadulterated version) in my belief in the “One, Holy, CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church.”

Catholic is still one of the titles of our Church, as is Orthodox.

In the other four patriarchates, you’re not called Catholic. You’re Latin, Frank. In three of them (the Arabic speaking ones), the term katuuliiki is used, but it is a loan word that just means Latin. Catholic is “jaami’i” ‘universal,’ ‘gathering.’

Unfortunately there were no copyright in the 11th century, so you got to use the term.

Existed “before”?, for one thing (or two actually) on those silver tablets that Pope Leo III erected in Rome “for love and protection of the Orthodox Faith.” And that book by that saint you claim as a doctor:An Exact Exposition of the ORTHODOX Faith. Both mentioned above.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

2ndGen;3273315:

I was just wondering why is that Jesus told Peter, go get the money from the fish’s mouth and pay my taxes and yours. why was Jesus paying Peter’s taxes only and not the others?

this reminds me of the Shi’ites arguing that Ali should succeed Muhammad because he ate a chicken with him.

Before we get sidestepped again into having to bring up St. Peter’s faults, an issue which you ultramontanists have still not addressed is even if Peter was the Prince of the Apostles (and he was), you have yet to prove that the bishop of Rome is his only successor.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

By the way, The Church Fathers never called The Church “The Orthodox Church”…they called it “The Catholic Church”.

and they called her Faith “the Orthodox Faith.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Or the RCC continued to be the Church led into all Truth by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus while the Orthodox church broke off and remains stagnant.

Or the OCC continued to be the Church led into all Truth by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus, remaining pure, while the RC broke off and became corrupted.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You know that by that argument (the one of “not” changing anything ever when The Holy Spirit reveals more truths to The Church), we wouldnt’ believe that Jesus is The Son of God because the Doctrine on The Divinity of Christ took hundreds of years to settle.

So when was a Christian supposed to begin believing in Jesus’ Divinity? Before or after The Doctrine was revealed?

At Christ’s baptism, for the worship of the Holy Trinity was made manifest. After that.

Don’t you guys make so much of St. Peter believing in Jesus’ Divinity c. 30 A.D.?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The altered creed with the Filioque

“We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord. the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. with the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.”

what is wrong with that?

I hope you cannot miss it now.

do you believe in the Trinity?

Yes. As He revealed Himself. John 15:26

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The altered creed with the Filioque

“We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord. the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. with the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.”

what is wrong with that?

I hope you cannot miss it now.

do you believe in the Trinity?

Yes. As He revealed Himself. John 15:26

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Come on, you left us because you didn’t want to submit to the Latin Pope then after denouncing the Papacy, you guys went and created your own Papacy!

Fallacy. Begging the question…again

Gotta go for now. We’ll pick this up later…

How about this one.

Martin Luther Quote:

“I never approve of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity…that the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St Peter and St Paul, forty-six popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the RCC with special favor. though now and days everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church that we can make it better. we must not separate from God on account fo any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account the multitude of the ungodly. there is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body for love can do all things and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”

Sooo claiming Martin Luther as a Church Father? As a former Lutheran, I find that amusing. I read a lot of what he had to say about Rome.

But since the Orthodox Catholic Church, through EP Jeremias and following councils denounced his teaching as heretical, it is of little interest to us, beyond historical curiosity.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I guess you must’ve missed my response to him then.

What do you think the muck was?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I missed this post earlier. Where did you get 200 years? Pope Benedict VIII added the Filioque to the Creed in Rome in 1014. The schism happened within one generation.

Actually, pursuant to canon, the pope of Rome was struck from the diptychs shortly thereafter 1014. The schism only happened in 1054 when the pope decided to stick himself back in, along with sticking the filioque in the Creed at Constantinople.

 

[2ndGen]

Don’t know history either?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I don’t know…there are so many Orthodox sects, I can’t figure out which is which. Tell you what…enlighten me…tell me which one is the real Orthodox Church:

Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople…

Actually you missed a couple.

Since ALL of the above are in communion with one another, they are ALL the Orthodox Catholic Church. In fact today at DL they will all be commemorating the heads of each others Churches, as they do at every DL (like you do with your pope). So take your pick.

[edit] Orthodox Churches and communities not in communion with others
Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Bulgarian Alternative Synod
Orthodox Church in Italy
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Montenegrin Orthodox Church
Russian True Orthodox Church
Turkish Orthodox Church
Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchate)
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America
[edit] Old Calendarist
Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece
Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians, USA
Orthodox Church of Greece (Holy Synod in Resistance)
Old Calendar Romanian Orthodox Church
Old Calendar Bulgarian Orthodox Church
Old Calendar Syrian/Assyrian Orthodox Church

These are our SSPX, Lefebrists, Old Catholics, etc… Do you concern yourself with these groups? No, I didn’t think so. Neither do we.

[edit] Old Believers
Russian Orthodox Old-Rite Church (Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy)
Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite Church (Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy)
Russian Old-Orthodox Church (Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy)
Pomorian Old-Orthodox Church (Pomortsy)

These are like your Protestants, just not as big nor as disruptive as your Reformation was.

[edit] Defunct churches
Croatian Orthodox Church
Chinese Orthodox Church

I can’t speak for the Croatian Church (though I know Croatian converts), but the Chinse Orthodox Church is very much alive. I know people (including the know retired metropolitan) and met Chinese Orthodox in Jerusalem.
orthodox.cn/
theology.cn/
etheology.cn/
chinese.orthodoxy.ru/main.htm
saintjonah.org/services/chinese.htm
usbaltic.org/Goble/Goble42.htm
orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/MayerChina.shtml
washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041027-035919-6014r.htm
cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/orth_china.html
orthodox-christian-comment.co.uk/news-orthodoxy_in_china.htm
aggreen.net/autocephaly/russia.html
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/bookrev_woerl.aspx
orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/134/Beijing.htm
stvladimiraami.org/clergyupdate.asp
prologue.orthodox.cn/
philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/christ/east/occhi.html
orthodox-christian-comment.co.uk/news-orthodoxy_in_china.htm
cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/hkmetropolis.html
orthodox.cn/index_en.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church#Church_today

What did I tell you about Wikipedia?

Or are they “all” The Orthodox Church?

No, just the first group.

And which one are you?

Ditto.

 

[2ndGen]

No, it’s like the wife using the ex-husband’s last name after she ran off. I know that one personally.

 

[2ndGen]

At Christ’s baptism, for the worship of the Holy Trinity was made manifest. After that.

Don’t you guys make so much of St. Peter believing in Jesus’ Divinity c. 30 A.D.?

Chapter and verse in The Holy Bible or a Christian Document to prove your assertion please.

Otherwise, this is “your” opinion and not historical fact.

I requested a “Doctrine”. A complete and formal and final document professing the reasons one must believe in the subject of the text.

Find it, then get back to me…If you cannot find it before the 4th century, you’re going to have a problem explaining why current Doctrines that weren’t taught by the “original” Apostles and that were “revealed” hundreds of years later must be accepted today by Christianiy.

And that trounces The Orthodox Church’s claim that only original teachings of The Apostles can be accepted.

By the way, in what “year” was your famous original Creed created? Before 90 AD or after 90AD?

 

[2ndGen]

Ditto.

All of these “Churches” existed back in the first century?

And what is a “Ditto” Orthodox Christian?

( …is that like a “copy” of an “original” Christian?)

 

[2ndGen]

Isa…

Some Questions you missed (I’m sure it’s just that you’re too busy to answer them this morning, so I’ll make it easy fo you to refer to them when you return… ).

=============================================

He’s Orthodox, but not Eastern Orthodox, but he’s a Copt, but not an Arab even though The Coptic Church is an Arab Church?

Are you Greek Orthodox Arab? Russian Orthodox Arab?
Hot Fudge Sundae with a cherry on the top flavor of the month Arab Orthodox?

So why have him around then (your powerless pope)?
Who does have authority over you if not him who you’re under?
And what does his race have to do with spiritual guidance?
Again… So basically, he’s a “paper pope” or just for show?

What does “being under” a pope mean?
Is that “submission”?

(In Alexandria)

Which Orthodox “Church” there?

Coptic?
Greek?
Russian?

To whom did Jesus say He would give The Keys to?

And he’s (orthodox popes) not a “Catholic” pope today…why?

Was there some “doctrinal change or innovation” that you no longer call him The Catholic Pope?

Are you the guys who are always fighting with The Armenians and The Greeks inside The Churches in The Holy Land?

 

[2ndGen]

Actually you missed a couple.

Since ALL of the above are in communion with one another, they are ALL the Orthodox Catholic Church. In fact today at DL they will all be commemorating the heads of each others Churches, as they do at every DL (like you do with your pope). So take your pick.

I can’t speak for the Croatian Church (though I know Croatian converts), but the Chinse Orthodox Church is very much alive. I know people (including the know retired metropolitan) and met Chinese Orthodox in Jerusalem.
orthodox.cn/
theology.cn/
etheology.cn/
chinese.orthodoxy.ru/main.htm
saintjonah.org/services/chinese.htm
usbaltic.org/Goble/Goble42.htm
orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/MayerChina.shtml
washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041027-035919-6014r.htm
cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/orth_china.html
orthodox-christian-comment.co.uk/news-orthodoxy_in_china.htm
aggreen.net/autocephaly/russia.html
orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/bookrev_woerl.aspx
orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/134/Beijing.htm
stvladimiraami.org/clergyupdate.asp
prologue.orthodox.cn/
philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/christ/east/occhi.html
orthodox-christian-comment.co.uk/news-orthodoxy_in_china.htm
cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/hkmetropolis.html
orthodox.cn/index_en.html

Do allllllll these Churches believe in the exact same doctrines?

Or do their doctrines vary according to their allegiances?

Is your definition of “communion” the same as saying that all Catholic Churches believe in the authority of The See of Peter?

If so, who then is your “Peter”?

(One leader of alllllllll those Orthodox Churches?)

 

[VARC]

Paul calls Peter the leader of The Church and even recognizes James as the leader of the Church at Jeruselum.

Where does Paul refer to Peter as " the leader of the Church"? You can’t assert that without backing it up

Paul has to meet with Peter before he can begin his ministry (a full 3 year wait after his encounter with Jesus), but as soon as he meets with Peter and Peter confirms his work is ok, he gives him permission and off he goes.

Acts 9:20 Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 **At once **he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

He did not need Peter’s permission to preach the Gospel.

Fallacy. Non-sequitor. Just because Paul met with Peter it does not follow that he was required to do so to begin his ministry

It’s not the Church that he built, but the Church that he ran the Christian empire from.

Christian empire? Fallacy. Begging the question. You need to establish that Peter “ran the christian empire” before you use that as proof for your argument. As if he was having conference calls with the other Apostles. The other Apostles worked independantly of Peter. No one was “checking in” with Peter.

Where was that? Where was Christianity’s headquarters?

Smack under Nero’s nose…Jesus planted His Church right within the gates of His enemies and the enemies of God using them to convert the world…He even used Constantine The Great to cement Christianity’s presence and protection from the empire and her enemies.

Fallacy. Begging the question. You must establish that Jesus established in Rome. I already know that your proof for that is also a fallacy. "Peter was in Rome"Non-sequitor

I did…when I quoted Saint Ambrose and Saint Augustine stating it as fact that Peter ran The Church and that he did it from Rome.

And I pointed out that your proofs were fallacious.

The Saint Church Fathers even acknowledge that he was martyred in Rome and that he was buried in Rome.

Fallacy. Nonsequitor. Just becasue Peter was buried in Rome it does not follow that Rome is the Mother church to which all churches must submit.

He is not a Pope therefore, not all of his beliefs can be adhered to by Christianity as infallible.

Fallacy. Arguing off the point and straw man argument. You quoted Augustine for proof that he believed the Rock was Peter. I pointed out that was a fallacy of card stacking because Augustine retracted that view. I never asserted that he was infallible.

But since you believe Augustine so much, will you accept “this” from him?

“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by…and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).

Fallacy. Nonsequitor. Augustine is speaking of the Catholic Church not the church of Rome.

“Carthage was also near the countries over the sea, and distinguished by illustrious renown, so that it had a bishop of more than ordinary influence, who could afford to disregard a number of conspiring enemies because he saw himself joined by letters of communion to the Roman Church, in which the supremacy of an apostolic chair has always flourished.” Augustine, To Glorius et.al, Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397).

Fallacy. Card stacking. You neglect to mention that for Augustine, Roman authority did not overide the orthodox catholic faith when Pope Zosimus judged Pelagius to be orthodox.

“The chair of the Roman Church, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today.” Augustine, Against the Letters of Petillian, 2:51 (A.D. 402).

Fallacy. Non-sequitor. Peter also sat in the chair of the church in Antioch.