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wisdomseeker said:
Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? And have we not one calling in Christ? Why do we divide and tear to pieces the members of Christ, and raise up strife against our own body, and have reached such a height of madness as to forget that “we are members one of another?” Remember the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, how He said, “Woe to that man [by whom offences come]! It were better for him that he had never been born, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my elect. Yea, it were better for him that a millstone should be hung about [his neck], and he should be sunk in the depths of the sea, than that he should cast a stumbling-block before one of my little ones. Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth.”
Clement of Rome[regn c.A.D. 91-101],To the Corinthians,46(A.D. 91),in ANF,I:17-18
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Yes, there were many heresies in those days. This is a wonderful epistle. What is your point?
 
wisdomseeker said:
“See that ye follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father.”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Smyrnaens,8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

I think he is talking about one person not many bishops. lets see could be the Pope?
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Did he say Pope? No. He is talking about bishops (plural). 😉
 
wisdomseeker said:
“See that ye follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father.”
Ignatius of Antioch,To the Smyrnaens,8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

I think he is talking about one person not many bishops. lets see could be the Pope?
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Thats a first, Ignatius used to prove a Papacy. Talk about out of context!
 
Mickey said:
Yes, there were many heresies in those days. This is a wonderful epistle. What is your point?
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here is my point. i have not heard that the CC is the one that is schismatic. since you did not agree with the Pope and left you are included on that group. the Pope is the only one who can excommuicate in this case.
 
wisdomseeker said:
Let’s see if he is talking about bishops, we would have to ask which one? how many bishops are there?
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He continually writes about following the bishop. Pick a bishop. Any bishop. You are the first I have seen (even amongst seasoned Roman Catholic apologists) who have tried to use his letters to mean Pope.
 
Mickey said:
I am not protestant.

In St John 21, Jesus Christ asks St Peter three times “Lovest thou me…” This atones for St Peter’s triple denial. I believe that St John 21 is a poor apologetic for the supreme papal infallibilty that now exists in the Roman Catholic Church. 🤷
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In your church,what does scripture mean when Jesus says, Peter your rock,on this rock I’ll build my church,and what does it mean when Jesus gives the keys to Peter, and tells him what you bind on earth,bound in heaven,loose on earth,loosed in heaven? just curious,I would like to know other christian views on this …
 
trustinyou said:
In your church,what does scripture mean when Jesus says, Peter your rock,on this rock I’ll build my church,and what does it mean when Jesus gives the keys to Peter, and tells him what you bind on earth,bound in heaven,loose on earth,loosed in heaven? just curious,I would like to know other christian views on this …
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Read through this thread and you will see. It has been stated many times.
 
wisdomseeker said:
Let’s see if he is talking about bishops, we would have to ask which one? how many bishops are there?
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Ignatius is used to prove a monarchial bishop for the different churches that he writes to but heavens, never to prove a Papacy.

Some quotes and the different churches he addresses:
Now it becomes you also not to treat your bishop too familiarly on account of his youth, but to yield him all reverence, having respect to the power of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters do, not judging rashly, from the manifest youthful appearance [of their bishop], but as being themselves prudent in God, submitting to him, or rather not to him, but to the Father of Jesus Christ, the bishop of us all. (Magnesians)
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while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, (Magnesians)
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Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him….It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.
(Ephesians)
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“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop.”
Jerome,Commentaries on the Epistle to Titus,3:10(A.D. 386),in JUR,II:194

which bishop?
 
2ndGen said:
Where’d you get that from?

:confused:

They deny that it was The Catholic Church that came to their aid “after” they left us. 🤷

What you just posted must have them going like this…:banghead:

I’ve noticed that their very “communist” like when questioned.

They project a lot, don’t answer questions, attempt to distract one off of the topic by trying to change to focus to the poster of the question and once pinned down to answer a question, they refuse on the grounds that we’re just wrong. :confused:

Well…consider the source. 🤷

I had to start other threads to force them to stick to the subject (as in this unstructured thread, there is no subject and thus, they can thrive here).

But on the deliberate threads, their a lot more quiet.

You could hear crickets chirping.

Instead of answering the questions, their posting responses on insulting.

😛
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it is a good one is it not?
i wil tell you later.
 
wisdomseeker said:
“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop.”
Jerome,Commentaries on the Epistle to Titus,3:10(A.D. 386),in JUR,II:194

which bishop?
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I thought we wer talking about 275 years earlier…
 
Mickey said:
He continually writes about following the bishop. Pick a bishop. Any bishop. You are the first I have seen (even amongst seasoned Roman Catholic apologists) who have tried to use his letters to mean Pope.
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ok which one? since there are so many. dont you think there is kind of vague and cause confusion. like right now. which church? which bishop of which church should i go to?
 
Can anybody provide any proof that The Catholic Church “was not” founded by Peter?

:coffeeread:
 
“You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome
the episcopal chair was given first to Peter;…”

Optatus
The Schism of the Donatists 2:2
A.D. 367

Is Optatus an “Orthodox” Catholic?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
Which one takes precedence?

The Nicene Creed (325 AD)…

…or The Apostles Creed (circa 100 AD)?

Which is the “original” Creed?

And has the Nicene Creed “added” to the original Creed?

:confused:
 
2ndGen said:
Which one takes precedence?

The Nicene Creed (325 AD)…

…or The Apostles Creed (circa 100 AD)?

Which is the “original” Creed?

And has the Nicene Creed “added” to the original Creed?

:confused:
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i think the whole confusion is:
the failing of seeing one Church, not churches.
one bishop, not many bishops

from this church, others will in different parts of the world.
but all are connected to the one church.
Paul made this point when he said man do you belong to Paul or Appolos etc…
Can you imagine a court room without a judge just lawyers and jurors? who is going to decide a judgement?

as Jesus was leader of the apostles so He had to also leave a leader on earth. Jesus and 12 apostles. so was Peter and 12 apostles. they were sent by Jesus on missionary work. so is the Church sends out missionaries churches to all parts of the world.
if they cannot understand that, i will rest my case.
 
wisdomseeker said:
i think the whole confusion is:
the failing of seeing one Church, not churches.
one bishop, not many bishops

from this church, others will in different parts of the world.
but all are connected to the one church.
Paul made this point when he said man do you belong to Paul or Appolos etc…
Can you imagine a court room without a judge just lawyers and jurors? who is going to decide a judgement?

as Jesus was leader of the apostles so He had to also leave a leader on earth. Jesus and 12 apostles. so was Peter and 12 apostles. they were sent by Jesus on missionary work. so is the Church sends out missionaries churches to all parts of the world.
if they cannot understand that, i will rest my case.
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Siimply put, if we “REALLY” want to be “orthodox”, then let’s not go to the 4th century, nor the 2nd, nor the 1st…let’s go to Century 0…

What was the structure of The Church?

1 Leader with 12 disciples.

When The Leader was about to leave, He chose another to lead His Church.

When one of those disciples died, another was succeeded to his position.

It’s not that complicated.

It’s only complicated for those outside of “that” Church.
 
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