UPDATE: Homeopathic Meds--BAD!!!

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Petergee:
Now you’re really scaring me, you actually think the fact that a man is a qualified doctor is an argument AGAINST his medical advice being correct. You may as well say, “I won’t cross that bridge because it was built by a qualified civil engineer. I’ll cross a bridge built by people who know nothing about bridge-building.”
Petergee, I guess you missed my point. What I’m saying is this particular physican may (or may not) have an axe to grind against anything that isn’t traditional medicine. I don’t know this person and probably neither do you. He may be “right on” with some of his findings, or not. I don’t know. Keep an open mind.

BTW, I’ve worked with some “qualified” docs as a military medic, who couldn’t find their rear ends with both hands in their back pockets. I’ve also worked with some very good ones.

If some alternative medicine practices and homeopathic meds help folks, so what? As long as they aren’t produced from a “Satan Worship” ceremony, I believe the good Lord will be ok with it.

Mike
 
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mikew262:
Petergee, I guess you missed my point. What I’m saying is this particular physican may (or may not) have an axe to grind against anything that isn’t traditional medicine. I don’t know this person and probably neither do you. He may be “right on” with some of his findings, or not. I don’t know. Keep an open mind.
BTW, I’ve worked with some “qualified” docs as a military medic, who couldn’t find their rear ends with both hands in their back pockets. I’ve also worked with some very good ones.
If some alternative medicine practices and homeopathic meds help folks, so what? As long as they aren’t produced from a “Satan Worship” ceremony, I believe the good Lord will be ok with it.
Mike
Exactly the way I feel!!
And, interestingly, I go to the same church as a retired doctor (MD) & 2 retired RNs, all of whom will say, “Well, now that I’m retired,” & go on to suggest some natural remedy, supplement, etc…They were restricted by the requirements of their licenses…at least to some degree.
I had a similar experience years ago, when I had :eek: not one but :bigyikes: two compressed discs in my neck. A doctor (regular kind!) made me an appointment with a chiropracter from the pay phone at the clinic where he worked, to stay out of trouble with the “powers that be”. I had a series of 3 adjustments over a week, & the test results were reversed…The official word was a “false positive”. All I can tell you is: no neck surgery, no spinal fusion, and an end to the pain!
Same idea, IMO: alternative form of medicine that worked-- noninvasively–where regular allopathy didn’t/couldn’t.

Are there nuts out there? Sure. Avoid them…But the worst “nut” that I ever met in the field of healing was an MD, who as I’ve said, was deeply into what I call “woo-woo”…Now he was scary, & I think that Christians–Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox–need to avoid him & his kind like the plague.
 
IMO, part of the wonder of the sciences is being able to discover what causes these homeopathic remedies to be effective, because some (SOME, I repeat) are.

For example, Native Americans used to and may still chew the bark of a willow tree (genus Salix) to treat pain. Undeniable a homeopathic remedy.

If you’ve ever read the back of an aspirin bottle, you might recognize the word salicylate. The words are similar because the compound is a derivative of salicylic acid, found in the bark of a willow tree. The chemical conversion is simple and can occur in the body, hence having the analgesic (pain-killing) effect. (I hope I got all that straight, correct me if my details are wrong.)

I took a medicinal plants course in college. The first thing we were taught was “the dose makes the poison.” In other words, the only difference between a poison and a medication is how much is given and whether the patient needs it or not.

There are two conflicting problems with herbal or homeopathic remedies:
  1. Sometimes compounds are present that have an undesirable side effect, and homeopathic medicine does not give us a way to separate the good from the bad.
  2. Sometimes multiple compounds together achieve the desired effect, and it is impossible to isolate the medical, chemical source of the remedy because there are so many possible combinations of compounds and doses.
 
(MikeW262) What I’m saying is this particular physican may (or may not) have an axe to grind against anything that isn’t traditional medicine.
“Tradition” means nothing to proper medicine or any other scientific discipline. Genuine doctors don’t prescribe certain treatments because they are “traditional” but because they are proved to work. As soon as a better treatment comes along, the “traditional” one is discarded.
He may be “right on” with some of his findings, or not. I don’t know. Keep an open mind.
The information on the Quackwatch site is not “HIS findings” but a collation of a vast amount of solid scientific information and evidence produced by thousands of people and organisations. His only “axe to grind” is an aversion to mumbo-jumbo. Read it with an open mind instead of with the false assumption that he is pushing some partisan view.
If some alternative medicine practices and homeopathic meds help folks, so what? As long as they aren’t produced from a “Satan Worship” ceremony, I believe the good Lord will be ok with it.
That’s the point, they DON’T help, and no amount of “I had X disease and I took Y treatment and now I’m better” proves otherwise. At best the customer will suffer financially. They may suffer damage to their health. If they are hoodwinked into thinking the treatment “works” and push it onto others and become a “believer” in it, they are putting their immortal soul at risk.
(Zooey) I go to the same church as a retired doctor (MD) & 2 retired RNs, all of whom will say, “Well, now that I’m retired,” & go on to suggest some natural remedy, supplement, etc…They were restricted by the requirements of their licenses…at least to some degree.
Yes it’s sad when this happens. I suggest you read the article on the Quackwatch site “Why Health Professionals Become Quacks”. The old retired folks probably thought “at least the eye of newt etc probably won’t do any harm, or at least my friend won’t admit it if it does, so I won’t get sued and I’ll still get the kudos of being acknowledged as a “medical expert”. And even if I do get sued, I can say it’s the governement’s fault for making this stuff freely available which made me think it was OK; or if they do strike me off the register I don’t care, I’ll just say I’ve retired voluntarily and I don’t need to work anymore.
A doctor (regular kind!) made me an appointment with a chiropracter from the pay phone at the clinic where he worked, to stay out of trouble with the “powers that be”.
So the “powers that be” – the professional medical boards, scientists, and governments of every country in the world, both capitalist and communist, are all involved in some vast all-embracing conspiracy to stop people from getting treatments which they know would cure them. If you believe this, you are already in the grip of the “alternative therapy” religion, my friend. The simplest way to avoid the “nuts” is to RUN, not walk, for the door, whenever you hear words like “allopathic” and “orthodox medicine” or "“THEY"don’t want you to know this”.
(Vluvski) IMO, part of the wonder of the sciences is being able to discover what causes these homeopathic remedies to be effective, because some (SOME, I repeat) are.
Your opinion is wrong. None, repeat zilch, zero, homeopathic “remedies” are effective. This is not opinion, it is scientifically proven fact. And what’s worse, the very basis of homeopathic theory is insulting to the intelligence and is based on false occult beliefs.
For example, Native Americans used to and may still chew the bark of a willow tree (genus Salix) to treat pain. Undeniable a homeopathic remedy.
No. That’s totally deniable. This has nothing to do with homeopathy (the wacko theory that when a poison is diluted millions of times, shaking after each dilution, to the point where not even one molecule of the posion likely remains in the dose, the “vital energy” of the poison is transmitted to the diluting material (usually water) so that it cures the diseases which supposedly have the same symptoms as those caused by the poison). The salicylic acid in willow bark is highly corrosive to the stomach. That’s why it was such a boon when aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) was produced, which is much less irritating to the stomach as well as a more effective painkiller. Why on earth would anyone want to take, as an “alternative” to aspirin, a less effective drug with worse side effects, mixed with thousands of other compounds with varying adverse effects which are also in the willowbark? Sure if you were on a desert island with no other source of pain relief. But if you did it when aspirin is available, the only logical reason is that you are a “true believer” in the occult power of the charlatan who sells it.
 
Petergee, your mind is obviously closed to this subject. However, it’s wondrous that you’ve decided that alternative medicine and homeopathic meds don’t work even though several folks on this thread have told you otherwise.

Yes, some methods are “wacky” and don’t provide an ounce of relief, but some are legitimate. BTW, not all studies are infalliable. I assume you know that.

You believe what you want. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how narrow it is.

Quackwatch appreciates your support. :rolleyes:

Mike
 
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Petergee:
Your opinion is wrong. None, repeat zilch, zero, homeopathic “remedies” are effective. This is not opinion, it is scientifically proven fact.
Yet again, another statement which casts doubt on your credibility. Where are the citations on this? You are saying that “modern medicine” has done a full-scale study on each and every homeopathic treatment.

Several years ago there was a report about glucosamine and chondroitin on a major news magazine show. A woman had treated her arthritic dog with the supplement, and the dog’s mobility improved. It’s an over-the-counter remedy that humans can take and in some it has the same effect as it did in the dog. And my M.D. recommends it too. 😛
 
First, I wanted to apologize to the OP for comments I made earlier, which I directed at “the OP”, in fact, I had thought due to his persistence that Petergee was the OP, it is his words I have problems with.

Petergee- you might have some good point in there somewhere but your complete trust in the medical community overshadows any point you make, you show no balance in your argument.

I really would love it if you could address the major errors in health matters and especially moral matters of Western Medicine. How can you place such complete trust (and believe in the moral superiority) of a medical model which has developed things like birth control pills and chemical abortion methods? How can I possibly believe that Merpk has anyone’s best interests at heart when they make vaccines that are derived from aborted fetuses? How can I possible believe in the morals of a company that makes “Plan B”?

Where does your blind devotion come from?
 
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Courtneyjo:
Yet again, another statement which casts doubt on your credibility. Where are the citations on this? You are saying that “modern medicine” has done a full-scale study on each and every homeopathic treatment.
Several years ago there was a report about glucosamine and chondroitin on a major news magazine show. A woman had treated her arthritic dog with the supplement, and the dog’s mobility improved. It’s an over-the-counter remedy that humans can take and in some it has the same effect as it did in the dog. And my M.D. recommends it too. 😛
Yup!! This is one of the remedies that I know works. I have a dear friend who avoided a knee replacement by taking the same thing!
And I love the part about the dog, because, you know, the nay-sayers are always saying “placebo effect”, but when a dog or cat gets:thumbsup: better from something like this–How are you supposed to explain that by placebo effect??
 
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jess7396:
First, I wanted to apologize to the OP for comments I made earlier, which I directed at “the OP”, in fact, I had thought due to his persistence that Petergee was the OP, it is his words I have problems with.

Petergee- you might have some good point in there somewhere but your complete trust in the medical community overshadows any point you make, you show no balance in your argument.

I really would love it if you could address the major errors in health matters and especially moral matters of Western Medicine. How can you place such complete trust (and believe in the moral superiority) of a medical model which has developed things like birth control pills and chemical abortion methods? How can I possibly believe that Merpk has anyone’s best interests at heart when they make vaccines that are derived from aborted fetuses? How can I possible believe in the morals of a company that makes “Plan B”?

Where does your blind devotion come from?
Thank you, thank you!!
Whenever I hear the blind devotion to the Western medical community, regardless of anything, the words “45 million abortions” rise in my mind…None of which were performed by naturopaths, homeopaths or chiropracters…
What is wrong with this picture??
 
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Petergee:
No. That’s totally deniable. This has nothing to do with homeopathy (the wacko theory that when a poison is diluted millions of times, shaking after each dilution, to the point where not even one molecule of the posion likely remains in the dose, the “vital energy” of the poison is transmitted to the diluting material (usually water) so that it cures the diseases which supposedly have the same symptoms as those caused by the poison). The salicylic acid in willow bark is highly corrosive to the stomach. That’s why it was such a boon when aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) was produced, which is much less irritating to the stomach as well as a more effective painkiller. Why on earth would anyone want to take, as an “alternative” to aspirin, a less effective drug with worse side effects, mixed with thousands of other compounds with varying adverse effects which are also in the willowbark? Sure if you were on a desert island with no other source of pain relief. But if you did it when aspirin is available, the only logical reason is that you are a “true believer” in the occult power of the charlatan who sells it.
Umm, maybe it’s just me but I think you just totally invalidated your entire argument. The homeopathic willow bark remedy WORKS! No one is saying aspirin isn’t clearly better, an example I pointed out in problem 1 with homeopathic remedies.

You claim that the efficacy of chewing willow bark as a pain remedy is deniable, yet you say it would be a legitimate and effective solution if you were on a deserted island?

Where in the world do you think we got our ideas from anyway? I bet in Jesus’ time people weren’t sitting in labs creating wonder drugs by swapping out hydrogens with methyl groups, yet they were still able to find relief somewhere.

I think it is naive to believe that homeopathy is the best and only source for effective medicine, but it is ignorant to claim that no homeopathic remedy is effective.

You have zero credibility in my book, Petergee.
 
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Zooey:
Thank you, thank you!!
Whenever I hear the blind devotion to the Western medical community, regardless of anything, the words “45 million abortions” rise in my mind…None of which were performed by naturopaths, homeopaths or chiropracters…
What is wrong with this picture??
Well, perhaps, but I have a “natural herbal healing” book (I could give you the name of it in private, don’t want to list it here, necessarily) that lists several things you can take to induce an abortion! So, obviously, just 'cause it’s natural, doesn’t mean it’s safe, moral, or without misuse!

Jennifer J
 
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vluvski:
Umm, maybe it’s just me but I think you just totally invalidated your entire argument. The homeopathic willow bark remedy WORKS! No one is saying aspirin isn’t clearly better, an example I pointed out in problem 1 with homeopathic remedies.

You claim that the efficacy of chewing willow bark as a pain remedy is deniable, yet you say it would be a legitimate and effective solution if you were on a deserted island?

.
I think he is saying that willow bark is not homeopathic, but rather a natural remedy. That homeopathy is:
the theory that when a poison is diluted millions of times, shaking after each dilution, to the point where not even one molecule of the posion likely remains in the dose, the “vital energy” of the poison is transmitted to the diluting material (usually water) so that it cures the diseases which supposedly have the same symptoms as those caused by the poison).
 
Well, I guess I never knew the real definition of homeopathy then.

Petergee, I owe you a huge apology. Sorry!

I bet a lot of people arguing in favor of homeopathic meds have the same misconception I did. I just looked it up on dictionary.com, and it is very VERY different from natural medicine. The definition Petergee gave is pretty accurate.
 
I was also somewhat confused on the homeopathic definition, so in that regard, I also apologize to Petergee. However, I still stand by my other statements regarding the proven benefits of other alternative medicine methods.

BTW, homeopathic still doesn’t equate to bad in all cases. Look at snakebite serum for instance. Based on the definition given, this could very well fit into the homeopathic category.

Mike
 
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mikew262:
I was also somewhat confused on the homeopathic definition, so in that regard, I also apologize to Petergee. However, I still feel certain alternative medicine methods can provide some benefits.

BTW, homeopathic still doesn’t equate to bad in all cases. Look at snakebite serum for instance. Based on the definition given, this could very well fit into the homeopathic category.

Mike
 
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mikew262:
I was also somewhat confused on the homeopathic definition, so in that regard, I also apologize to Petergee. However, I still stand by my other statements regarding the proven benefits of other alternative medicine methods.

BTW, homeopathic still doesn’t equate to bad in all cases. Look at snakebite serum for instance. Based on the definition given, this could very well fit into the homeopathic category.

Mike
In the above quote, I retract the “proven benefits” verbage. I’m not willing to take the time to do research. Rather, speaking from personal experience and talking to other folks, I know some AM methods do provide a benefit.
 
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mikew262:
I was also somewhat confused on the homeopathic definition, so in that regard, I also apologize to Petergee. However, I still stand by my other statements regarding the proven benefits of other alternative medicine methods.

BTW, homeopathic still doesn’t equate to bad in all cases. Look at snakebite serum for instance. Based on the definition given, this could very well fit into the homeopathic category.

Mike
Disregard verbage concerning snakebite serum falling into the homeopathic category. This is incorrect.

Gee, I wish they’d allow you more time to edit your responses. :whistle:
 
I wasn’t going to get into an endless point-by-point refutation of all the false claims of so-called “alternative” therapies, but in charity I guess I need to correct a few things here. It was a bit arrogant of me to imply that it’s just a matter of “using your brain” to see that “alternative” medicine is bogus. Its spielers can be very persuasive and have even fooled some scientifically educated people. Which is why a site like Quackwatch is so valuable, and I do urge you to visit it for unbiased objective facts on many “alternative” therapies.
(MikeW) Petergee, your mind is obviously closed to this subject. However, it’s wondrous that you’ve decided that alternative medicine and homeopathic meds don’t work even though several folks on this thread have told you otherwise.
If I believed everything that “several folks told me” even when it flies in the face of all the scientific evidence, I would be a very confused and misled bloke.
(CourtneyJo) Yet again, another statement which casts doubt on your credibility. Where are the citations on this? You are saying that “modern medicine” has done a full-scale study on each and every homeopathic treatment.
No, I’m saying the very basis of homeopathic treatment is scientifically absurd and nonsensical, AND no homeopathic “remedy” has ever been shown to be effective. AND the onus is on those claiming a benefit for their treatment to prove that it works, not on everyone else to prove that it doesn’t work. “He who asserts must prove.”
Several years ago there was a report about glucosamine and chondroitin on a major news magazine show. A woman had treated her arthritic dog with the supplement, and the dog’s mobility improved. It’s an over-the-counter remedy that humans can take and in some it has the same effect as it did in the dog.
I would rank “a report on a major news magazine show” just slightly above “several folks told me”. Maybe these substances work, maybe not. The fact that their manufacturer chose to promote the product by means of a popular TV show, rather than doing independent testing submitted for peer review by experts, would strongly suggest “not”. “They gave it to the dog and the dog got better” means nothing. Over 80% of diseases will get better with ANY or NO treatment. Arthritis by its nature waxes and wanes in severity. And contrary to your implication, “over-the-counter” does not mean “alternative”. Many proven therapies are available without prescription.
(Jess) Petergee- you might have some good point in there somewhere but your complete trust in the medical community overshadows any point you make, you show no balance in your argument.
I really would love it if you could address the major errors in health matters and especially moral matters of Western Medicine. How can you place such complete trust (and believe in the moral superiority) of a medical model which has developed things like birth control pills and chemical abortion methods? How can I possibly believe that Merpk has anyone’s best interests at heart when they make vaccines that are derived from aborted fetuses? How can I possible believe in the morals of a company that makes “Plan B”?
Where does your blind devotion come from?
I certainly never suggested that I have “complete trust” in or “blind devotion” to “the medical community”. Nor that everything modern medical science has developed is moral. I think using nuclear weapons is immoral, but that doesn’t mean nuclear physics is immoral and can have no benefit. Nor did I even mention Merck or any other drug company (btw the same companies make many of the so-called “alternative” therapies). You’re introducing a lot of red herrings which have nothing to do with the point of this thread – that blind belief in so-called “alternative medicine” is irrational and a symptom of false religion.
(Zooey) And I love the part about the dog, because, you know, the nay-sayers are always saying “placebo effect”, but when a dog or cat gets better from something like this–How are you supposed to explain that by placebo effect??
Contrary to popular belief, the placebo effect is not “all in the mind” or seen only in suggestible people. Its benefit is real, and it is by no means confined to humans.
 
(Vluvski) Where in the world do you think we got our ideas from anyway? I bet in Jesus’ time people weren’t sitting in labs creating wonder drugs by swapping out hydrogens with methyl groups, yet they were still able to find relief somewhere.
In Jesus’ time, people like the great scientist Galen were investigating pharmaceutical properties of various substances in their labs, and trying to isolate, purify and improve them. Our modern wonder drugs are the end result of this process which has continued since that time. There is nothing holy about the state of scientific progress which happened to exist in Jesus’ time. Jesus and disciples cooked all their food over an open fire. I’m sure He doesn’t mind, and in fact would prefer, us using modern methods of cooking which are more efficient and cause less damage to the environment. The same with modern proven therapies which are a vast improvement on the herbs available in His time on earth. And He certainly would have no truck with totally bogus para-religious theories like homeopathy and iridology.
 
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Petergee:
In Jesus’ time, people like the great scientist Galen were investigating pharmaceutical properties of various substances in their labs, and trying to isolate, purify and improve them. Our modern wonder drugs are the end result of this process which has continued since that time.
That was pretty much my point. Galen, born in 131AD, wouldn’t have had access to modern equipment like a mass spectrometer to figure out what chemical structures caused a certain response when the drug was administered, so he used whatever means was available at the time. The research had to start somewhere, and that somewhere is nature. As a tribute to Galen, animal and plant-derived drugs are often referred to as ‘galenic.’
My goal was to refute what I perceived to be a claim that natural remedies are useless and ineffective. I had homeopathy confused with natural remedies, so the point is moot anyway.
 
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