"Upon These Thousands of Pebbles I Will Build My Churches"

[Ladybug42]

Protestants:

Do you think it matters whether or not you go to church, or is it okay to just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in private?

Ok, I think I’m considered Protestant by the Catholic Church, being Anglican, even though a great number of Anglicans (including myself) consider us to be a bridge church between Catholicism and Protestantism…so I’ll answer.

God wants us to gather together, although in a church is not a requirement…after all, the first Christians did not gather in churches, they did the best they could with what they had–which amounted to walking door to door, speaking in Synogogues, and meeting in one another’s houses. But nowhere in Scripture does Christ say that we need to gather in a church building to make our way to heaven. He did say, however, that where two or three are gathered in His name, He will be there.

If it is important to be involved in a church, does it matter which one you go to?

It matters in that you should follow God’s will–if God wills you to gather with a particular group of people, then you should do so. Otherwise, do the best you can and gather with any brothers or sisters in Christ that you can–all Christians are members of the Body of Christ. We are not to turn away one another, we need to hold out our arms in fellowship to one another.

If it does matter, how do you know you are going to the right one?

Any gathering where two or more are gathered together in the Lord’s name is blessed by His presence. The Holy Spirit will guide us, as it guided the first Christians, and as it guided the prophets of old. Use Scripture, what we can discern of tradition after studying history and current apostolic churches, and reason.

If it doesn’t matter, how do you explain why so many Protestant churches teach so many different doctrines that contradict one another when God cannot contradict Himself?

People contradict one another. Early church fathers in the Catholic tradition contradicted one another–result: they excommunicated one another. People are people, now and in the past. God is perfect, but we are not. People like to believe that what they believe deep down is what God “wills.” The Mormons are famous for doing this…but so is everyone else. The Catholic Church has done the same. No person on earth is infallible when it comes to discerning God’s will. No person on earth is perfect. We can only lean on God as a family and try to prevent one another from this fallacy.

Yet they all claim to be teaching what Christ really intended.

Yes, including the Catholic Church. No one church is clear of error, churches are ran by men yes imperfect men who have a hope in Christ.

Not trying to start an argument, just curious.

Hmmmmmm…I suspect that you are not “just” curious, but that you are hoping to undermine the fellowship we find together just to attend the same kind of church as you.

I have a relationship with the Lord, and I want to fellowship with others who have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. As the first Christians did, I’ll do whatever I can to get together with these folks, to find a group that God leads me to–and moreover, I’ll not avoid worshipping in certain physical locations with my brothers or sisters in Christ mearly because the sign on the church doesn’t denote Catholicism.

 

[Syele]

Thing is Protestants don’t believe “this Rock” is a church at all. It’s on Jesus we build “church”.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Thing is Protestants don’t believe “this Rock” is a church at all. It’s on Jesus we build “church”.

Thank you for commenting on this.

 

[IanS]

FWIW, I don’t think anything of the sort. I don’t think the first-century Church was exactly like any existing church, and I don’t think the Catholic Church is substantially any more corrupt (doctrinally I mean–it’s big and old and so it’s gathered a lot of barnacles, but that’s not what we’re talking about) than any other church–less so than many.

Well no. My reason for not being Catholic is that I have experienced God’s grace outside the Catholic Church, and I would have to cut my ties with the communities in which I have experienced this grace in order to be Catholic (and I would have to submit myself to numerous practical arrangements that seem to hinder or prevent certain particular experiences of grace that have been important to me).

Edwin

Thanks for sharing your feelings, Edwin. Interesting perspective.

 

[colliric]

Thing is Protestants don’t believe “this Rock” is a church at all. It’s on Jesus we build “church”.

And thats the sad thing about protestant belief, They fly in the face of one of the most important peices of scripture which we can in fact prove 100% that Peter is “this rock”.

This is not by going to the Greek, which grammatically needs to use both male and female forms of the word “Rock”(because in greek it is feminine, which therefore cant also the translation for Peter’s male name)… but by going to the Aramaic, which uses the word “Kepha” in BOTH places. You are Kepha, on this Kepha I shall build my church.

in other words:
You are the Rock, On this rock I shall build my church.

 

[mozart-250]

Protestants:
Do you think it matters whether or not you go to church, or is it okay to just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in private?

Absolutely. Scripture teaches not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

If it is important to be involved in a church, does it matter which one you go to?

Yes, with qualifications:

I am not searching for the “one true” church in respect to everyone else. In fact I think that mindset breeds arrogance.

That having been said, these are the attributes look for in churches:

• Traditionally (orthodox,Biblical) on issues of faith and morals.
• Does a resonably good job of reaching community, county, world for Christ.
• Is not arrogant in respect to other faith communities in area.
• Not trendy (doesn’t need to reinvent itself to keep up with the latest fads du jour in ChristianityLand

Furthermore, I believe it important that a Christian commit to a community, be exceedingly loyal to the place where God has the Christian, and not be in search of the Holy Grail of the one true (denomination, church, assembly). This is more important to me than choosing the “right” church in my community.

If it does matter, how do you know you are going to the right one?

It is sufficient for me to believe I am going to the congregation where the Lord would have me.

If it doesn’t matter, how do you explain why so many Protestant churches teach so many different doctrines that contradict one another when God cannot contradict Himself? Yet they all claim to be teaching what Christ really intended.

My own “theory” (and this is just a theory) is that God intentionally left some things in the Bible ambiguous. In other words, He chose not to reveal the whole story.

The disagreements come when man tries to fill in the gaps on what God has kept to himself. We don’t like to say “I don’t know”. So thus we all claim to know something that God is really not specific about.

Actually I have seen more division over stuff like style of worship than over theology anyway.

 

[mozart-250]

So what kind of Church did Jesus Christ establish? If you ask a Baptist he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Baptist Church, but it became corrupted. If you ask a Church of Christ pastor he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Church of Christ, but it became corrupted. If you ask a, Evangelical Lutheran he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the E.L.C.A., but it became corrupted. If you ask a Mormon, he will tell you the same, but he will add that Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in the woods and reestablished what He really intended.

…and if you ask a Pentecostal, the original church was all tongues-speaking Charismatics.

…and if you ask a Catholic, the original church was like the Catholic church.

I am not convinced that when you read the earliest of the ECF (and the New Testament) that they were all that close to any western church. Probably closest to a persecuted assembly in the 10-40 window or something like that.

One thing they can all agree on is that it did become corrupt and the Catholic Church is the result. They cannot agree on when, how, or why, but they all know they must be somehow right. Otherwise, they have no reason to not be Catholic. Scholars, clergy, theologians, and lay people have fought and even killed one another over this for hundreds of years. If we are so passionate over this issue then obviously many do believe it is important and do believe there is only one correct answer.

Who say that needs to follow.

To me that is unbridled arrogance on the part of non-Catholics to assume that particularly given our own spotted history. We are told to remove the logs from our own eyes before going after the specks in our brothers. Anyone without logs in their own eyes please speak up.

The reason why I am not Catholic depends on what the basis I would become Catholic should I choose to do so. Now I have been getting decidedly mixed messages from the Catholic community on this point…so let me respond to both.

A. The one True Church Basis. Catholicism is the one true church and we are heretics.

That needs a whole lot of evidence to get me to buy into this. After all, I have experienced Christ where I am at, which should not happen in a heretic, Satanic organization (yes one poster here responded to me that Protestantism was satanic).

This really sounds to me like arrogance. Sorry.

B. The “We all are roughly equal…but we can trace our origins to St. Peter, therefore Catholicism is preferable” basis.

I name this after a friend of mine, “Ted”, who converted to Catholicism in college and shared with me that this was his reason.

I would think this would be a much better approach to Protestants, and wish that were the approach I see here. Approach “A” can get a gut level response to me. But in fairness to “Ted”, I have considered his reasoning lately.

I must observe however that even given Ted’s premise, it does not necessarily follow that “therefore all Protestants must convert from where they are to Catholicism”.

And since loyalty to where God has you is very important in my personal values (particularly given my personal situation), this is not enough for me to disroot myself from where I am.

 

[Ladybug42]

And thats the sad thing about protestant belief, They fly in the face of one of the most important peices of scripture which we can in fact prove 100% that Peter is “this rock”.

This is not by going to the Greek, which grammatically needs to use both male and female forms of the word “Rock”(because in greek it is feminine, which therefore cant also the translation for Peter’s male name)… but by going to the Aramaic, which uses the word “Kepha” in BOTH places. You are Kepha, on this Kepha I shall build my church.

in other words:
You are the Rock, On this rock I shall build my church.

Peter was demonstrating faith, and Jesus was pointing that out. Peter was the perfect example of faith at that point, and so he nicknamed him Rock for it. It is on Peter’s example, on the faith that he demonstrated, that very same faith that we all share, that we base our hope. Our faith is in Christ!

 

[IanS]

All feelings aside, what is our Lord trying to tell us here?

Jn 10:16 – There shall be one fold and** one **shepherd
Eph 4:3-6 – **one **Lord, **one **faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 – avoid those who create dissention
1 Cor 1:10 – I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phill 2:2 – be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 – God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 – I pray that you be one, as we are one
1Cor 12:13 – in one spirit we are baptized into **one **body
Rom 12:5 – we, though many are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 – **one **body, one Spirit, called to hope
Col 3:15 – the peace into which you were called **one **body

 

[IanS]

Peter was demonstrating faith, and Jesus was pointing that out. Peter was the perfect example of faith at that point, and so he nicknamed him Rock for it. It is on Peter’s example, on the faith that he demonstrated, that very same faith that we all share, that we base our hope. Our faith is in Christ!

Peter was a perfect example of faith! He denied Jesus three times. Jesus even called him Satan and rebuked him in several other instances.

If you are looking for a perfect example of faith, look to Mary. However, Jesus never even named her an Apostle, did he?

 

[exoflare]

Peter was demonstrating faith, and Jesus was pointing that out. Peter was the perfect example of faith at that point, and so he nicknamed him Rock for it. It is on Peter’s example, on the faith that he demonstrated, that very same faith that we all share, that we base our hope. Our faith is in Christ!

Jesus said:

“You are ROCK, and on this ROCK I shall build my church.”

Not:

“Your faith is a ROCK, and on this ROCK I shall build my church.”

 

[Contarini]

A. The one True Church Basis. Catholicism is the one true church and we are heretics.

That needs a whole lot of evidence to get me to buy into this. After all, I have experienced Christ where I am at, which should not happen in a heretic, Satanic organization (yes one poster here responded to me that Protestantism was satanic).

This is an extreme opinion–discount it. Don’t use it as a cover to dismiss the Catholic position as a whole. I’m with you on the basic problem, though–how can one leave a community where one has experienced grace?

This really sounds to me like arrogance. Sorry.

I think G. K. Chesterton was right in saying that humility about the truth is not always a virtue. He warned 100 years ago that our civilization was in danger of becoming so humble that we didn’t dare say that 2 + 2 was 4, and I think the past century has seen his prophecy come true with the rise of postmodernism. I see nothing arrogant about a claim to be the one True Church, and I think that’s a very bad reason to dismiss the claim. Indeed, the “gut reaction” to which you allude may itself be a form of arrogance. We naturally don’t want to consider the possibility that we are heretics. Might that not stem from pride?

B. The “We all are roughly equal…but we can trace our origins to St. Peter, therefore Catholicism is preferable” basis.

I don’t think this is actually the best ground for Catholics to work from, because as you note that’s really a weak basis for conversion–it’s a better basis for ecumenism. Your “B” option is essentially what I currently believe, which is why I remain Protestant (in the most Catholic form I can find) while working for reunion (mostly through teaching Protestants about church history and trying to get them to think seriously about tradition, the sacraments, the unity of the Church, etc.).

Conversion becomes a necessity only if in some sense Catholicism really is the True Church. I think you pose these two alternatives in too stark a form. Vatican II made it clear that Protestants are in some sense part of the True Church. The current Catholic line is that we lack the “fullness of the Faith.” The question is whether, in some qualitative sense, Catholicism possesses that fullness and we do not (rather than all of us having particular bits of the truth that are lacking in other churches).

And since loyalty to where God has you is very important in my personal values (particularly given my personal situation), this is not enough for me to disroot myself from where I am.

It being a personal value probably isn’t enough. But I also find it in the Bible. . . . !

Edwin

 

[Syele]

And thats the sad thing about protestant belief, They fly in the face of one of the most important peices of scripture which we can in fact prove 100% that Peter is “this rock”.

This is not by going to the Greek, which grammatically needs to use both male and female forms of the word “Rock”(because in greek it is feminine, which therefore cant also the translation for Peter’s male name)… but by going to the Aramaic, which uses the word “Kepha” in BOTH places. You are Kepha, on this Kepha I shall build my church.

in other words:
You are the Rock, On this rock I shall build my church.

Well I find it sad that you think it’s SAD that we believe JESUS is the rock. Who do you think died for us?

 

[mozart-250]

Thing is Protestants don’t believe “this Rock” is a church at all. It’s on Jesus we build “church”.

I am not convinced the two positions are necessarily diametrically opposed.

I agree that in the final analysis the Church is built on Christ.

The question that I have in reading Matthew 16 is whether Christ was defining some type of central ecclesiastical structure for His church with Peter at the top of the organization chart…under only Christ.

I would like to see a thread on that started sometime because I have questions…maybe I will someday…

 

[exoflare]

Well I find it sad that you think it’s SAD that we believe JESUS is the rock. Who do you think died for us?

Jesus is the one who said Peter was the “rock” in the first place; why don’t you take it up with HIM? The only real question we have here is whose word to take - Jesus’ or Syele’s?

 

[exoflare]

I am not convinced the two positions are necessarily diametrically opposed.

I agree that in the final analysis the Church is built on Christ.

Exactly. It’s a false dichotomy they have to try and create…

 

[mozart-250]

This is an extreme opinion–discount it. Don’t use it as a cover to dismiss the Catholic position as a whole. I’m with you on the basic problem, though–how can one leave a community where one has experienced grace?

The word “heretic” elicits a very strong negative emotional response from me.

When I read on this web page that “Protestantism” is a great heresy, my mind instinctively goes back to the 15th and 16th centuries where heretics were either fried or drowned (by both sides). Or it goes back to the writings of Iranaeus where heretics were literally shunned by the church. I know that is not the intent, but I have great difficulty getting around this.

We naturally don’t want to consider the possibility that we are heretics. Might that not stem from pride?

I have no problem with being wrong on something. If you do the math, given the great number of issues which divide Christians, and the number of positions one can possibly have on these issues, the probability is infinitely small that any one Christian (much less myself) is correct on everything.

However, I take exception that my wrongness rises to the level of heresy (see above).

I think you pose these two alternatives in too stark a form.

Yeah…they are actually like two end of a continuum. It is just that from where I sit, Catholicism has been giving me very mixed messages on what exactly I am. All I know I am somewhere on this continuum.

 

[Ladybug42]

Peter was a perfect example of faith! He denied Jesus three times. Jesus even called him Satan and rebuked him in several other instances.

If you are looking for a perfect example of faith, look to Mary. However, Jesus never even named her an Apostle, did he?

He was a perfect example of faith at that time. hug Didn’t read all of what I said, did you? Jesus was using Peter as an example. It’s very important to look at what was said right before Jesus made that proclamation. Taking a verse out of context is very easy to do.

 

[Ladybug42]

All feelings aside, what is our Lord trying to tell us here?

Jn 10:16 – There shall be one fold and** one **shepherd
Eph 4:3-6 – **one **Lord, **one **faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 – avoid those who create dissention
1 Cor 1:10 – I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phill 2:2 – be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 – God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 – I pray that you be one, as we are one
1Cor 12:13 – in one spirit we are baptized into **one **body
Rom 12:5 – we, though many are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 – **one **body, one Spirit, called to hope
Col 3:15 – the peace into which you were called **one **body

We are one Body in Christ.
No matter what denom, we are one Body. All that is left is to reconcile our differences! Anything is possible with God.

 

[rbarcia]

Well I find it sad that you think it’s SAD that we believe JESUS is the rock. Who do you think died for us?

Exactly,

Peter himself answers this in his epistle. Peter calls Jesus the rock.

**

1 Peter 2

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

  “ Behold, I lay in Zion
  A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
  And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

  “ The stone which the builders rejected
  Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and

  “ A stone of stumbling
  And a rock of offense.”

**

Seems Peter knew what Jesus was talking about, that Christ is the rock.

Paul knew Christ is the rock

**

1 Corinthians 10:3-5

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

**

Jesus Himself shows us those who come to Him are like those that lay there house on rock?

**

Luke 6:47-49

47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.[a] 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

**

Are you telling me that Jesus is saying the rock is Peter in the parable of the builder? The context is clear that Jesus Christ is the rock, even Peter himself understood this by evidence in his Epistle.

You all can ignore the overwhelming context that shows Christ as the rock if you want, but the Word of God is clear on the subject.