Upon this Rock..

[Bballer32]

I thought you meant quotes about Fathers saying the Rock is Peters confession

Ive read plenty about the Rock being Peter himself but am interested in the others about the Rock being the Confession

Isnt there some from Augustine or Chrysostom??

All of Augustine and Chrysostom are on Peter being the Rock. You will find no TRUE Church Father talking about Peter’s confession being the rock. That is just a Protestant belief to help them find a way to refute Papal Supremacy.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

All of Augustine and Chrysostom are on Peter being the Rock. You will find no TRUE Church Father talking about Peter’s confession being the rock. That is just a Protestant belief to help them find a way to refute Papal Supremacy.

Another member here posted this on another thread-
(If that poster sees this ,i hope its okay to use your post)

*None of the fathers would claim that the Church is founded on only one apostle. Many had great things to say about the great apostle St Peter. But the rock is the confession of faith.

A friend of mine (a priestmonk) once had this to say:

Let us look at a quick summary of the way that the Church Fathers interpreted that verse -
“Thou are Peter and upon this rock…”

Archbishop Kenrick of Saint Louis, who was one of America’s
extraordinary bishops, was opposed to the doctrine of
papal infallibilty and at the First Vatican Council
in 1869 he voted against it. He wanted to deliver
a speech against the proposed doctrine at the Council
but instead he ceased to attend the Council meetings.

In his speech prepared for, but not delivered in, the
Vatican Council, and published at Naples in 1870,
he declares that Roman Catholics cannot establish
the Petrine privilege from Scripture, because of the
clause in the Creed of Pius IV, binding them to
interpret Scripture only according to the unanimous
consent of the Fathers.

And he adds that there are five different patristic
interpretations of St. Matt. 16:18

Let’s look at how the Church Fathers line up over this verse:

1…“That St. Peter is the Rock” is taught
by seventeen (17) Fathers

2…That the whole Apostolic College is the Rock,
represented by Peter as its chief,
is taught by eight (8) Church Fathers

**3…That St. Peter’s faith is the Rock,
is taught by forty-four (44) Church Fathers **

4…That Christ is the Rock,
is taught by sixteen Fathers (16)

5…That the rock is the whole body of the faithful.
Archbp. Kendrick gives no figure.

Archbishop Kendrick summarises

“If we are bound to follow the greater number
of Fathers in this matter, then we must hold
for certain that the word “Petra” means not Peter
professing the Faith, but the faith professed by Peter.” *

 

[po18guy]

Archbishop Kenrick, may he rest in eternal peace, was not speaking for the universal Church - even if he actually said these things. As well, his opinion is, by definition, the minority viewpoint. Rather, look into the life and writings of James Cardinal Gibbons, whose Imprimatur is on my Douay-Rheims bible.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

Archbishop Kenrick, may he rest in eternal peace, was not speaking for the universal Church - even if he actually said these things. As well, his opinion is, by definition, the minority viewpoint. Rather, look into the life and writings of James Cardinal Gibbons, whose Imprimatur is on my Douay-Rheims bible.

ok what about this-

3…That St. Peter’s faith is the Rock,
is taught by forty-four (44) Church Fathers

 

[Fra_Angelo]

This is not the only interpretation though it is one of them. There are more Fathers who interpreted this in favour of the seat and the person of St. Peter, I think. It is the common understanding from the very beginning of the Church and it is clear in many of the writings of the early Church Fathers.(cf. Faith of the Early Fathers) Highlighting an opinion as the truth avoiding the traditional understanding seems to be a Protestant view rather a Catholic. I think we need to discern.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

This is not the only interpretation though it is one of them. There are more Fathers who interpreted this in favour of the seat and the person of St. Peter, I think. It is the common understanding from the very beginning of the Church and it is clear in many of the writings of the early Church Fathers.(cf. Faith of the Early Fathers) Highlighting an opinion as the truth avoiding the traditional understanding seems to be a Protestant view rather a Catholic. I think we need to discern.

In my previous posts ,it says that 17 Fathers said Peter is the Rock and 44 Fathers said the Confession is the rock

 

[Bballer32]

In my previous posts ,it says that 17 Fathers said Peter is the Rock and 44 Fathers said the Confession is the rock

I think it all comes to the reason why the heck there is a pope. IF the people were to follow what the Fathers say, and 44 of them said that Peter’s confession of Faith was what they believed, then why has the belief of Peter being the Rock the teaching that has been held since then? What the Father’s taught isn’t dogmatic Truth (almost 25% of the Fathers were heretics ya know). Their teachings helped form the Church and some of the teachings did eventually become dogmatic, but most of them were teachings that they taught at the time.

 

[raikou]

Interestingly, I also got my assurance from this verse and the verse that followed. It said that #1 Christ built his Church on the unshakeable foundation of the Papacy and #2 The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

This means that there cannot be any Christian sect to replace the traditional and apostolic Church (since it cannot be destroyed in the first place… You only replace something if it’s destroyed)

It means that “Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia” Where there Is Peter (the Pope), there is the Church. You cannot take the Church from its foundation, or it would crumble. If the Church cannot crumble, the foundation must remain.

It makes sense, because if the essential unifying principle (primacy of the Pope) is taken away, all you need is for some bishops to teach erroneous Christian teachings in order to mislead the Church members and create division. Christ said “a kingdom divided on itself cannot stand.” Thus, it’s logical to say that when Christ envisioned an everlasting Church, he has founded it on an unshakeable unfiying principle - the Papacy.

Thus began my conversion to take my Catholic faith seriously.

 

[raikou]

In my previous posts ,it says that 17 Fathers said Peter is the Rock and 44 Fathers said the Confession is the rock

Did the 44 Fathers necessarily deny that Peter is the Rock? Did they also refute the validity of the Papacy during their time?

Anyway, how is one declared a “Father of the Church?” What are their functions? If I’m not mistaken, it is also the Church governed by the Pope who declared them as such. They are also subject to the Pope’s authority. If ever, disagreements among Church fathers even prove the necessity of a unifying principle, which is the Pope.

 

[Bballer32]

Did the 44 Fathers necessarily deny that Peter is the Rock? Did they also refute the validity of the Papacy during their time?

Anyway, how is one declared a “Father of the Church?” What are their functions? If I’m not mistaken, it is also the Church governed by the Pope who declared them as such. They are also subject to the Pope’s authority. If ever, disagreements among Church fathers even prove the necessity of a unifying principle, which is the Pope.

To be a Church Father…

time period… 33 a.d. to the death of St. John Damascus (700’s). They were men who helped form the Catholic Faith to what it is today. Some of them were even popes

 

[Zackeera]

What does the Bible say about Who is the Rock?

1 Corinthians 10:4:
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Deuteronomy 32:3-5:
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psalm 81:16:
He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.

Psalm 89:26:
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Psalm 92:15:
To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Psalm 94:22
But the Lord is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

What does the Bible say about Who is the Rock?

1 Corinthians 10:4:
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Deuteronomy 32:3-5:
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psalm 81:16:
He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.

Psalm 89:26:
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Psalm 92:15:
To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Psalm 94:22
But the Lord is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.

Well Christ then renamed Simon into Peter which means Rock

So Peter is a Rock also

 

[Zackeera]

Well Christ then renamed Simon into Peter which means Rock

So Peter is a Rock also

There is a very real distinction between the Rock (Christ) and the rock (Peter). I think the following is quite a good explanation. It is taken from carm.org/is-peter-the-rock :

"First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress:” “You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie.” Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:
•Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”
•Matt. 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”
•1 Cor. 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”
•1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?"

I believe the answer to that question is a resounding “yes”!

 

[Bballer32]

What does the Bible say about Who is the Rock?

1 Corinthians 10:4:
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Deuteronomy 32:3-5:
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psalm 81:16:
He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.

Psalm 89:26:
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Psalm 92:15:
To shew that the Lord is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Psalm 94:22
But the Lord is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.

Correct. God is the Rock. But, since the Israelites could not see God he gave his “Rock-like” authority to someone who the people of Israel could see. They were told to turn to “Abraham your father and to Sarah who gave you birth.” (Is 55). But how do the people of Israel know about Abraham’s God given power? God changes his name. It went from being Abram (before God called him) to Abraham (after God gave him the power). And this is What Christ does.

When he first calls Peter, he is originally Simon but changes his name. (John 1:42). Peter probably has no idea why. Then, it hits him when Christ reveals to him the God-given power. The disciples would have no the scriptures really well in the OT, so when Christ give him the power of Binding and Loosing, Isaiah Chapter 22 must of immediately stood out and opened their eyes to realize what power was being granted unto Peter.

If this didn’t help read this catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter%E2%80%99s-authority

 

[Bballer32]

There is a very real distinction between the Rock (Christ) and the rock (Peter). I think the following is quite a good explanation. It is taken from carm.org/is-peter-the-rock :

"First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress:” “You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie.” Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:
•Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”
•Matt. 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”
•1 Cor. 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”
•1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?"

I believe the answer to that question is a resounding “yes”!

This is also is somewhat true, but think of it this way. In Spanish, certain nouns are masculine or feminine. For example: chair is “la silla” (feminine) and book is “el libro” (masculine). These will never change from their orientation. Now, that we have that cleared up here comes my point. In Greek, you would never name one of your boys “Petra” correct? That would be giving him a female name not a guys name. What Christ does is make the “Petra” into “Petros” which allows him to give Peter a masculine name. So, when the verse is given “you are Petros, and on this Petra…” it goes from the name of the rock to describing the rock. By saying his name “Petros” and informing him that he will be the rock (which is a noun not a name which gives the right to have it called petra) Peter and the Apostles realize that Peter will be the head of the foundation of Christ’s Church.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

There is a very real distinction between the Rock (Christ) and the rock (Peter). I think the following is quite a good explanation. It is taken from carm.org/is-peter-the-rock :

"First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress:” “You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie.” Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:
•Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”
•Matt. 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”
•1 Cor. 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”
•1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?"

I believe the answer to that question is a resounding “yes”!

Christ didnt speak greek to Peter,but Aramaic,
You are Kepha and on this Kepha i will build…

From the Greek translation going further into the English translation ,it gets worse
you are Peter and on this Rock,

People totally distinguish the rock apart from Peter

 

[The_Reginator]

There is a very real distinction between the Rock (Christ) and the rock (Peter). I think the following is quite a good explanation. It is taken from carm.org/is-peter-the-rock :

"First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. “…you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church…” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress:” “You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie.” Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:
•Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”
•Matt. 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”
•1 Cor. 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”
•1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?"

I believe the answer to that question is a resounding “yes”!

Zackeera,
You may find this interesting. I recall a thread discussing this very topic from a while back … this may be the one. Give this a read if you’re interested:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=611270&highlight=Peter+%2B+rock