'Upon this rock'

[phillip94]

Hello CAF,

I have a question that I’d like to ask and I think it would be interesting to see what opinions and thoughts others have, feel free to share anything in relation to my question(s).

Matthew 16: 15-19
New International Version (NIV)

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades** will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; (click the hyper link below to see the remaining text)**

Taken from this website; biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MATT+16:15-19

Questions:

As you can see above, Jesus said to Peter, “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church”.

1. Does Jesus refer to Peter himself being the rock and the Church shall be built on him? (As we Catholics know and believe, St Peter’s Basilica is built on-top of St Peters remains) And his authority over others in Christianity given by Christ, shall be passed down through Apostolic succession?

1. Or, does Jesus refer to Peter as being the rock because his faith is strong (for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.) And Christ’s Church shall be built on his/this proclamation (the faith Peter has) as the fundamental beliefs of the Church? Considering that a rock is strong, it would mean that not even the gates of hell can shake man’s belief about the Son of God?

I apologise if this question has come up before, I tried searching for similar threads using keywords but I was unsuccessful. Please feel free to comment with any thoughts or understanding you have of this specific scripture

 

[hakop]

Petros, which is what Jesus originally called Peter(english version of Petros) means rock.
He called Peter this in the original translation, in greek. So Jesus does call Peter the Rock in which he will build His church. Jesus renamed him, due to His faith. The bible has a lot of instances where God renames certain people due to them being seperated for a special purpose.
So in reality Jesus says “And I tell you, that you are Rock, and on this Rock I will build my church”.
A quick google search on the translation of this will answer your questions. I am definitely sold on the fact that Peter is the rock in which Jesus said He would build His church.

 

[Cathoholic]

phillip94.

You asked . . .

QUOTE:

1. Does Jesus refer to Peter himself being the rock and the Church shall be built on him?

Yes.

You also asked . . .

QUOTE:
2. Or, does Jesus refer to Peter as being the rock because his faith is strong (for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.) And Christ’s Church shall be built on his/this proclamation (the faith Peter has) as the fundamental beliefs of the Church?

Yes.

It is a yes/and, not an either/or. Both are in the CCC. I’ll try to look them up for you later.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[po18guy]

The NIV is a translation that was produced by men with a pronounced bias against the Catholic Church. Thus, it has been massaged to allow a far different and newer interpretation. The evidence that Christ founded His Church on Peter is simply overwhelming. The scriptural support alone is substantial, not to mention the very form and history of the Church. As well, when Jesus spoke in the 3rd person, He referred to Himself as the Son of man, or the Bridegroom. He changed Simon’s name to “rock” (Peter, Kepha, Cephas all mean rock), then in the same sentence, said “on this rock I found my Church.”

It is nonsensical to think that Christ founded His Church on Himself. That takes some real twisting of scripture.

 

[zab]

I would recommend searching through the tracts on the papacy in the CAF library:
catholic.com/tracts/browse/Papacy

 

[adawgj]

Petros, which is what Jesus originally called Peter(english version of Petros) means rock.
He called Peter this in the original translation, in greek. So Jesus does call Peter the Rock in which he will build His church. Jesus renamed him, due to His faith. The bible has a lot of instances where God renames certain people due to them being seperated for a special purpose.
So in reality Jesus says “And I tell you, that you are Rock, and on this Rock I will build my church”.
A quick google search on the translation of this will answer your questions. I am definitely sold on the fact that Peter is the rock in which Jesus said He would build His church.

Then why don’t you follow the Church that Christ established? (If you do sorry for my ignorance)

 

[kkollwitz]

I wonder if this passage generates such discussion in languages where Peter’s name is closer to the word for rock, as in French: “tu es Pierre, et que sur cette pierre je bâtirai mon Église.”

 

[hakop]

Then why don’t you follow the Church that Christ established? (If you do sorry for my ignorance)

Oh no ignorance noted, thanks for your concern…I’m still awaiting for RCIA before I am, but God has led me to it through His own special and very effective way. Just at this time…I’m not OFFICIALLY…but all things in due time

 

[Novocastrian]

The NIV is a translation that was produced by men with a pronounced bias against the Catholic Church. Thus, it has been massaged to allow a far different and newer interpretation. The evidence that Christ founded His Church on Peter is simply overwhelming. The scriptural support alone is substantial, not to mention the very form and history of the Church. As well, when Jesus spoke in the 3rd person, He referred to Himself as the Son of man, or the Bridegroom. He changed Simon’s name to “rock” (Peter, Kepha, Cephas all mean rock), then in the same sentence, said “on this rock I found my Church.”

It is nonsensical to think that Christ founded His Church on Himself. That takes some real twisting of scripture.

I’m not big fan of the NIV, but could you point out for me what’s wrong with the translation here offered?

 

[Moro_Rock]

Deut. 32:4
The Rock — how faultless are his deeds, how right all his ways! A faithful God , without deceit , how just and upright he is !
One of the names of God from the Song of Moses. So when Jesus gave Simon the
new name of Peter (Rock ) he was also stating , on the basis of Simon’s faith
that he was to be known as Peter (Rock ) identifying him with God .
Despite Peter’s faults he had the faith and the leadership qualities to take over
as first Papa when Jesus returned to the Father

 

[phillip94]

@Moro Rock,

Thank you for your reply, I have now learnt some interesting new facts!

@po18guy,

Thank you for your reply, I understand that there are many translations and versions of the Bible, I apologise for choosing the NIV, I had typed in the quote and just happened to have chosen that version from Bible Gateway

@zab,

Woah, I wasn’t aware of this Library. Even when it’s right in front of my eyes Thanks for this link!

@hakop,

Good luck with the RCIA, very happy to see that you are following the plan(s) God has for you!

& Thank you to the others for your replies, I think before opening a discussion I’ll have to search a Bible version that everyone is comfortable with discussing “The NIV is a translation that was produced by men with a pronounced bias against the Catholic Church.” - I had no idea that this was the case, thanks for the info!

 

[Nicea325]

The NIV is a translation that was produced by men with a pronounced bias against the Catholic Church. Thus, it has been massaged to allow a far different and newer interpretation. The evidence that Christ founded His Church on Peter is simply overwhelming. The scriptural support alone is substantial, not to mention the very form and history of the Church. As well, when Jesus spoke in the 3rd person, He referred to Himself as the Son of man, or the Bridegroom. He changed Simon’s name to “rock” (Peter, Kepha, Cephas all mean rock), then in the same sentence, said “on this rock I found my Church.”

It is nonsensical to think that Christ founded His Church on Himself. That takes some real twisting of scripture.

Exactly! And that is what I constantly hear from fundamentalist. They usually say:

Jesus built the church on himself,not Peter.

So when Jesus spoke to Peter, he was really talking to Himself and making reference to Himself? :ehh:

 

[Cathoholic]

Because of the faith he (Simon Peter) confessed, Peter will remain the unshakable rock . . . .

CCC 552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;283 Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."284 Christ, the “living Stone”,285 thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.286

Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock . . .

But wait! There’s more!

There are other layers of Peter as “Rock”, one of which of course is his name change. One of which IS Peter as “ROCK”.

CCC 881 The Lord made Simon ALONE, whom he named Peter, the rock of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head. This pastoral office of Peter and the apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

(all caps in CCC 881 mine)

Q: Well how can Peter possibly be the “Rock”? Christ is the Rock?

A: Because it is a unique “participation” or “sharing” or “koinonia” or “association” in Christ that Simon has.

It is this “participation” that Simon Peter is gifted and graced to share with Christ, that enables Simon to be “Cephas”, it enables Simon to be “Peter”, it enables Simon to be “Rock”.

CCC 551 From the beginning of his public life Jesus chose certain men, twelve in number, to be with him and to participate in his mission.280 He gives the Twelve a share in his authority and 'sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal."281 They remain associated for ever with Christ’s kingdom, for through them he directs the Church:

As my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.282​

CCC 586a Far from having been hostile to the Temple, where he gave the essential part of his teaching, Jesus was willing to pay the Temple-tax, associating with him Peter, whom he had just made the foundation of his future Church.359