Upon which Rock/rock?

[MeekandHumble]

Many, and I mean many scriptures declare that God is the Rock.

For instance…

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Psa. 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Psa. 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

…just to name a few.

Yes, Matthew 16:18 says And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

BUT a few verses later Peter allowed satan to speak through him and Jesus rebuked them both. This let’s us know that Peter was sinful (for lack of words)

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

When Jesus said “upon this rock” how do you know which rock? Yes, peter means rock but all through the Bible God is declared as “The Rock”.

Revelation 1:18 says I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

According to Revelation 1:18 Jesus has the keys of hell and according to many scriptures, He is the Rock. Doesn’t that mean that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Him (Jesus)

So which do you choose from and why? Really, how do you know for sure that Jesus (the Rock throughout the Bible) isn’t talking about Himself? Why would Jesus build His church upon sinful man? Why would Jesus not build His church upon Himself? Why would Jesus say that He is the Rock, He is the head of the church and have the keys of hell, yet build His church upon Peter (mortal man)?

Before you give an answer, please think about the following scriptures.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[eucharisteo]

Jesus is the rock that he speaks of. Peter is the person with whom he passes the keys to along with the apostles. Yes, one, Peter, and all, Apostles in communion with Peter and in essence in communion with Christ. I hope that’s what you meant.

 

[Trishie]

Peter’s name was Simon. Jesus changed it to Peter, meaning “rock”

"When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 16:14-20

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church4.html

catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/rock.htm

catholic-resources.org/Bible/Epistles-Peter.htm

 

[MeekandHumble]

Peter’s name was Simon. Jesus changed it to Peter, meaning “rock”

"When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 16:14-20

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church4.html

catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/rock.htm

catholic-resources.org/Bible/Epistles-Peter.htm

1.That does not change the fact that Jesus is the Rock. According to the book of Ephesians, Jesus is clearly the head of HIS church.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

2.Christ forbade Peter and the others to not exercise lordship/authority over the faithful as did the king of the Gentiles. So why would Christ make Peter a pope (authority over the faithful) yet speak of them not to do it in the book of Luke 22? Please read the following scripture.

Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

Luke 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

 

[Nicea325]

**1.That does not change the fact that Jesus is the Rock. According to the book of Ephesians, Jesus is clearly the head of HIS church. **

Yep! And Jesus is also called the foundation and so are the Apostles.

Yeah! And the RCC has never taught Jesus is NOT the head of Church.Where do you people get your kooky beliefs and ideas?

 

[MeekandHumble]

**1.That does not change the fact that Jesus is the Rock. According to the book of Ephesians, Jesus is clearly the head of HIS church. **

Yep! And Jesus is also called the foundation and so are the Apostles.

Yeah! And the RCC has never taught Jesus is NOT the head of Church.Where do you people get your kooky beliefs and ideas?

You failed to respond to Luke 22:24-26

 

[mark_a]

BUT a few verses later Peter allowed satan to speak through him and Jesus rebuked them both. This let’s us know that Peter was sinful (for lack of words)

What does this have to do with milking ducks?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Meekandhumble,

Do you have any idea of the history behind the place Christ chose to announce His Church?

Christ chose Caesarea Philippi, so named by Herod Philip, in honor of the ruling Caesar at the time. Caesarea Philippi’s history, prior to being renamed, tells us this was Panion, city of the great pagan god, Pan, who pagans believed ruled the world.

Pan was the god of shepherds and flocks. His essence was sexual and leaned towards depravity; it represented the power of evil to Christians. The transfiguration took place on the mountain above the spot, that still exists to this day, a site honoring Pan. There is an altar to Pan just below the city, hidden in the cliffs.

Why did Christ chose such place, so antithetical to the Kingdom of God? Because, through the Church, Christ was establishing is the antithesis to everything which kept men from the Kingdom; even the gates of hell (a site named and also located in a niche in the mountain, that some called the ‘abyss’) shall not prevail against it.

A Kingdom needs a King - King of kings. When the King, established by God through David, is absent, the Kingdom cannot be left unattended. A keeper of the keys, prime minister or vicar, is needed. The keeper of the keys is in full authority over the Kingdom. He can make law or repeal it. He makes the decisions the King would make when He is not present, and he is only answerable to the King.

**Luk 1:32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.
Luk 1:33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isa 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.**

Those present when Christ announced His Church fully understood the implications of the ‘keys and the authority to bind and loose’.

Now, as someone mentioned before, Simon Bar-Jona was renamed. Name changes in scriptures were always significant and were explained. Abram becomes Abraham because God will make of him a great nation. Jacob becomes Israel because he contended and had power with God and with men and prevailed. The same as Simon Bar-Jona became ‘Peter’, ‘Petros’ in Greek, ‘Cephas’ in Aramaic, because upon his strength in faith the sacred community of the faithful, the Church, would be founded.

Yes, Matthew wrote Petros, instead of Petra. Why? Because of the culture and the times. Petra is the feminine sense of rock and Petros is the male sense of rock. This is similar to the spanish use of gendered nouns. 'El gato, male cat, la gata, female cat, for example.

But considering the Lord spoke Aramaic, the name was ‘Cephas’, which in Aramaic, there is only one word for rock, which John tells us was given Simon when Christ met Peter. Matthew 16 is the explanation behind the renaming.

**Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona. Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter. **

The explanation is one on going thought expressed by Jesus. There is no doubt that the keys went to Peter, with the authority to bind and loose. Christ uses the word ‘and’ to show He is clearly addressing Peter. Christ also tells us who revealed the answer to Peter. If the Father in heaven chose to reveal this to Peter, it was done and even Christ would not go against the will of the Father.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

As for your thoughts that Peter was ‘evil’, or ‘satan’, because of his sinfulness, you are mistaken. Peter did not want Christ to die. He did not understand and he was ‘tempted’, the same as Christ had been ‘tempted’ by ‘satan’ in the desert. Christ was referring to that temptation, to get behind Him.

**Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again.
Mat 16:22 And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.
Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. **

If Christ saw Peter as Satan, why did Christ appear to Peter, before others, and ask him three times to ‘feed His sheep/lambs’, each time asking him if he loved Him? But this is another story, behind which is much revealing ‘symbolism’, if one was interested in discussing that meeting before Christ’s ascension.

 

[PJM]

=MeekandHumble;6480437]Many, and I mean many scriptures declare that God is the Rock.

For instance…

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Psa. 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Psa. 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

…just to name a few.

Yes, Matthew 16:18 says And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

BUT a few verses later Peter allowed satan to speak through him and Jesus rebuked them both. This let’s us know that Peter was sinful (for lack of words)

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

When Jesus said “upon this rock” how do you know which rock? Yes, peter means rock but all through the Bible God is declared as “The Rock”.

Revelation 1:18 says I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

According to Revelation 1:18 Jesus has the keys of hell and according to many scriptures, He is the Rock. Doesn’t that mean that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Him (Jesus)

So which do you choose from and why? Really, how do you know for sure that Jesus (the Rock throughout the Bible) isn’t talking about Himself? Why would Jesus build His church upon sinful man? Why would Jesus not build His church upon Himself? Why would Jesus say that He is the Rock, He is the head of the church and have the keys of hell, yet build His church upon Peter (mortal man)?

Before you give an answer, please think about the following scriptures.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

***It’s NOT that complicated friend:Jesus is the CornerStone *and Peter is the Foundation./I]

**Eph. 2:19 **So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

John.21: 17 "He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. "

Luke 22: 31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I [Jesus] have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

Love and prayers,

Pat**

 

[Stephen168]

Many, and I mean many scriptures declare that God is the Rock.

For instance…

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Psa. 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Psa. 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

…just to name a few.

Yes, Matthew 16:18 says And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Yes, Christ built a Church (Mat 16:18). It was a church which you could go to (Mat 18:15-18) for the truth (1 Tim 3:15). How was it organized in 100AD? What did that Church believe in 200AD? What was that church in 300AD?

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Cephas, and upon this cephas I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Mat 16:18)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ built His house, which is His Church. Was He like the wiseman who built his house upon ‘rock’, or was he like the other man who built his house upon sand?

 

[Cristian_B]

You know … what I find very interesting is that the other two authors of Mark and Luke didn’t put very much importance on what Jesus said, but rather on Peter’s declaration. Just something to think about … if Jesus was setting the ruler of the church there … then they should have wrote it because it’s very important, but looks like they considered Peter’s declaration important enough to write in in 3/4 Gospels, and Jesus ‘declaration’ on only 1/3.

Just something to think about.

 

[Cristian_B]

Christ built His house, which is His Church. Was He like the wiseman who built his house upon ‘rock’, or was he like the other man who built his house upon sand?

My point. He is the rock. Isn’t He going to build it on the fact that He is God the Rock, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God? Or if He going to build it on Peter the ‘smaller’ rock, the mortal, the sinner?
Also, why didn’t Jesus say ‘upon you’ but He said ‘upon this rock’? This subject is of tremendous importance. Isn’t He supposed to make it clear?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You know … what I find very interesting is that the other two authors of Mark and Luke didn’t put very much importance on what Jesus said, but rather on Peter’s declaration. Just something to think about … if Jesus was setting the ruler of the church there … then they should have wrote it because it’s very important, but looks like they considered Peter’s declaration important enough to write in in 3/4 Gospels, and Jesus ‘declaration’ on only 1/3.

Just something to think about.

Mark and Luke were not ‘eyewitnesses’ to Christ’s ministry. What they wrote they learned through ‘oral tradition’.

The same argument can be made for the Bible being the ‘final authority’. If it was as important as to be the final authority, they ‘should’ve wrote it’. Are we to discount something in scriptures, simply because it was only written about by one author of the New Testament?

Something else to consider is John’s account of Christ appearing to the Apostles one last time, yet again to single Peter out with instructions to ‘feed His sheep/lambs’, three times.

 

[C2M2C]

My point. He is the rock. Isn’t He going to build it on the fact that He is God the Rock, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God? Or if He going to build it on Peter the ‘smaller’ rock, the mortal, the sinner?
Also, why didn’t Jesus say ‘upon you’ but He said ‘upon this rock’? This subject is of tremendous importance. Isn’t He supposed to make it clear?

In Aramaic the word is Kepha which means large stone. Jesus declared Peter to be the “rock” or large stone, and then “upon this rock…”. Rock was not a name in Jesus’ time so there is significance to this. The adjective “tautee” was used to describe the rock which is a demonstrative adjective underscoring the fact that Peter was in fact the rock and not any other person. Also, why would Jesus say “you are a small pebble” to then turn around and give him the keys along with binding and loosing authority? Or in other words, tell him that he is insignificant only to give him power and authority in the same breath?

We Catholics understand very clearly that Jesus is the Rock of the church, Peter is simply the rock of the church on earth. Just because Jesus is the Rock doesn’t mean that someone else can’t be a rock for a different reason. i.e. in Ephesians the apostles are the foundation, and yet so is Jesus in Corinthians. Jesus is the shepherd of the flock in Peter and yet so are the apostles in Acts. It’s all about context.

Hope this helps and isn’t to abbreviated to get the point across.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

My point. He is the rock. Isn’t He going to build it on the fact that He is God the Rock, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God? Or if He going to build it on Peter the ‘smaller’ rock, the mortal, the sinner?
Also, why didn’t Jesus say ‘upon you’ but He said ‘upon this rock’? This subject is of tremendous importance. Isn’t He supposed to make it clear?

Why did you decide to only respond to my smaller post, when I gave a detailed explanation of the announcement of His Church, and the location chosen by Christ?

Doesn’t scriptures also tell us that Christ is the cornerstone and the Apostles are the foundation? And, being like the ‘wiseman’, I’m sure Christ built His house on a ‘rock’ foundation, as opposed to a ‘sand’ foundation.

**Eph 2:20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: **

In construction, a building requires a corner stone to stand. How many times did Christ refer to Himself as the cornerstone?

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 16:18 says And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

When Jesus said “upon this rock” how do you know which rock? Yes, peter means rock but all through the Bible God is declared as “The Rock”.

(Jesus) He is the Rock. Doesn’t that mean that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Him (Jesus)

So which do you choose from and why?

Why should I need to choose between them? Jesus is THE Rock. Of course the gates of hell do not prevail. The reason they do not prevail against the Church is because He is her Head.

Peter was a Rock (or became one when he grew into his new name), Jesus grafted Peter into His own rock-ness. The statement of Peter is also solid rock - absolute and eternal Truth.

Really, how do you know for sure that Jesus (the Rock throughout the Bible) isn’t talking about Himself?

I am certain that Peter could have no rock like qualities apart from Christ.

Why would Jesus build His church upon sinful man?

To show forth His glory.

 Why would Jesus not build His church upon Himself?

They are not separated. Scripture tells us that the Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ as the Cornerstone. They are all knit together inesparably. We can all become built into her if we have the same faith as Peter.

Why would Jesus say that He is the Rock, He is the head of the church and have the keys of hell, yet build His church upon Peter (mortal man)?

Somehow you are mentally separating Peter from Christ, which is not how it works.

Before you give an answer, please think about the following scriptures.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The HS is the soul of the Church. the church is more than the modern deficient view of “the body of believers on earth”.

 

[guanophore]

1.That does not change the fact that Jesus is the Rock.

Definitely not!

According to the book of Ephesians, Jesus is clearly the head of HIS church.

Indeed.

Jesus gave Peter the responsibility to feed and care for HIS sheep.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Did you not realize that these passages were written by a Catholic, for Catholics?

2.Christ forbade Peter and the others to not exercise lordship/authority over the faithful as did the king of the Gentiles. So why would Christ make Peter a pope (authority over the faithful) yet speak of them not to do it in the book of Luke 22?

Authority is when someone has been given the power and responsibility to do something. Jesus gave this to Peter and the Apostles. He wants them to exercise their authority as He did, in humility. Do you think that Peter did otherwise?

Please read the following scripture.

Luke 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

Luke 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Maybe you think these verses mean there is no authority?

Did you know the Pope signs all his correspondence “servant of the servants of God”?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Also, why didn’t Jesus say ‘upon you’ but He said ‘upon this rock’? This subject is of tremendous importance. Isn’t He supposed to make it clear?

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Blessed art you, Simon Bar-Jona (Note He did not call him ‘Petros’ in this statement.) because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but the Father who is in heaven. (God the Father saw fit to reveal Christ to him.)

AND (still speaking to Simon Bar-Jona) I say to you (you, Simon Bar-Jona): You are ‘Petros’ (no longer Simon Bar-Jona, but now ‘rock’, in the male sense of the Greek ‘Petros’) AND upon this ‘rock’ (female sense of the Greek ‘Petra’) I will build my Church, and the gates of hells shall not prevail against it. AND (still speaking to ‘Peter’) I will give to you the keys fo the Kingdom of heaven. AND (still speaking to ‘Peter’) whatsover you shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven. AND (still speaking to ‘Peter’) whatsover you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven.

How much clearer do you want it? One really has to ‘intentionally’ dodge what is being said here and it has appearances of trying to make it fit a theology.

Matthew wrote this event and referred to Peter, using the male sense of the Greek word for ‘rock’, because of the times and the culture. It would have been unacceptable to refer to a ‘man’ with a woman’s name.

The ‘little rock’ vs. the ‘large rock’ argument becomes moot when we know Christ referred to Simon as ‘Cephas’, which is Aramaic for ‘rock’ and in Aramaic, there is only one word for ‘rock’.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, Matthew wrote Petros, instead of Petra. Why? Because of the culture and the times. Petra is the feminine sense of rock and Petros is the male sense of rock. This is similar to the spanish use of gendered nouns. 'El gato, male cat, la gata, female cat, for example.

But considering the Lord spoke Aramaic, the name was ‘Cephas’, which in Aramaic, there is only one word for rock, which John tells us was given Simon when Christ met Peter. Matthew 16 is the explanation behind the renaming.

Early historical records indicate that Matthew wrote his gospel originally in Aramiac.