UPS's no-beard policy hit with religious discrimination suit

[Allegra]

To me, it’s such an arbitrary and stupid rule in the first place. No one cares if the delivery guy has a beard or not. I think whether or not this is an issue of discrimination depends on the reason for the rule. For example, if the job required loading the truck using equipment on which a long beard could be caught, I think UPS would have a legitimate reason for such a rule against beards. However, if their reasoning is their opinion that clean-shaven men “look better”, then I think that is discriminatory. What is to stop them from saying that their customers feel more comfortable with Caucasian drivers? Or drivers that aren’t effeminate? Or male drivers?

I’m going to guess you are not a business owner that employees over a 100 people…
…Yes, seriously - if there is a conflict between a job you don’t even have & your religion.
…You should select a job, at a company, that doesn’t have a conflict with your religion.
…Yes, seriously.

 

[Pythons]

Not to the people who formed & continue to direct the Company it isn’t…
…The mentality today is one of “entitlement” - Corporations are evil, etc.
…When the reality is that the ability to create a company LIKE UPS is the reason so many people do whatever they can to get to America.

To me, it’s such an arbitrary and stupid rule in the first place. No one cares if the delivery guy has a beard or not. I think whether or not this is an issue of discrimination depends on the reason for the rule. For example, if the job required loading the truck using equipment on which a long beard could be caught, I think UPS would have a legitimate reason for such a rule against beards. However, if their reasoning is their opinion that clean-shaven men “look better”, then I think that is discriminatory. What is to stop them from saying that their customers feel more comfortable with Caucasian drivers? Or drivers that aren’t effeminate? Or male drivers?

 

[Allegra]

Not to the people who formed & continue to direct the Company it isn’t…
…The mentality today is one of “entitlement” - Corporations are evil, etc.
…When the reality is that the ability to create a company LIKE UPS is the reason so many people do whatever they can to get to America.

And many people do what they can to get to America so they can work hard and not fear being discriminated against for their faith, race, or ethnicity. I would say it’s also a sense of “entitlement” when a company expects it’s workers to put their religious practices aside when they don’t effect their job performance in any way.

 

[Pythons]

And many people do what they can to get to America so they can work hard and not fear being discriminated against for their faith, race, or ethnicity. I would say it’s also a sense of “entitlement” when a company expects it’s workers to put their religious practices aside when they don’t effect their job performance in any way.

A free society does not equate to there NOT being any rules - it’s economics, supply & demand…
…If an entrepreneur wants to take the financial risk & put in long hours of hard work to build a company.
…Then that person, who is providing jobs for people who want them, should have the leeway to direct that company.

No one is saying that the guy can’t work there because he’s Muslim - the company just has a no beard policy…
…UPS employs SCORES of Muslims - I know MANY Muslims who don’t grow beards.
…If your a devout Muslim you shouldn’t seek employment at a place that handles pork or requires you shave your beard.

It’s really simple…
…Plenty of companies out there that let you grow a beard if you want.
…Pick one of them to work at.

 

[Elizium23]

Shaving or cutting the beard is a foreign practice forbidden by Wahhabist Islam, so what this is is just another ideological colonization of the USA.

 

[dronald]

The question isn’t whether a beard/no-beard policy is a good one or not, the question is whether a Religious person can truly claim discrimination because of said policy.

I say no, a Muslim cannot use Religion as a means to disobey rules, even arbitrary ones held by a company.

Equality means equal rights for all. Therefore if everyone with beards is being rejected for having a beard (Muslim or not) then the company is being fair with their rather ridiculous rule. If they believe people are more presentable or something with clean shaven faces, then a company should be allowed to make that decision.

In fact, this is another ironic example of the soft bigotry that is going on in society. Let’s say I get rejected from the job because I refuse to shave my beard because I think it looks good and will get me a date. The company says “Sorry we have a no beard policy.” Yet a Muslim gets accepted to the job because he believes his Religion gives him that special right; that’s when a company truly discriminates.

 

[Allegra]

The question isn’t whether a beard/no-beard policy is a good one or not, the question is whether a Religious person can truly claim discrimination because of said policy.

I say no, a Muslim cannot use Religion as a means to disobey rules, even arbitrary ones held by a company.

Equality means equal rights for all. Therefore if everyone with beards is being rejected for having a beard (Muslim or not) then the company is being fair with their rather ridiculous rule. If they believe people are more presentable or something with clean shaven faces, then a company should be allowed to make that decision.

In fact, this is another ironic example of the soft bigotry that is going on in society. Let’s say I get rejected from the job because I refuse to shave my beard because I think it looks good and will get me a date. The company says “Sorry we have a no beard policy.” Yet a Muslim gets accepted to the job because he believes his Religion gives him that special right; that’s when a company truly discriminates.

Actually, as freedom of religion is protected by our nation’s constitution and looking good for a date is not, he does have that special right. As do you and as do I. The beard doesn’t prohibit the person from doing the job in any way. I ask again. What if the company feels that white skin makes a delivery man “look better”?

 

[Pythons]

Actually, as freedom of religion is protected by our nation’s constitution and looking good for a date is not, he does have that special right. As do you and as do I. The beard doesn’t prohibit the person from doing the job in any way. I ask again. What if the company feels that white skin makes a delivery man “look better”?

That’s a red herring - a man doesn’t choose what color or sex he is…
…A beard is a “personal choice”.
…Next Rastafarians will sue UPS because they can’t smoke pot & it’s part of their religion.

It’s idiotic

 

[Allegra]

That’s a red herring - a man doesn’t choose what color or sex he is…
…A beard is a “personal choice”.
…Next Rastafarians will sue UPS because they can’t smoke pot & it’s part of their religion.

It’s idiotic

Just to clarify your position, are you saying that you don’t agree with any anti-religious discrimination protection, or are you saying that it doesn’t exist? Because I think it’s fairly obvious that practice of religion is protected by our nation’s laws, constitution, and legal precedent.

Speaking of red herrings, if Rastafarians wanted to sue anyone over smoking pot, they’d probably go after most state governments, and not UPS, because it’s actually illegal to smoke pot in most states. Secondly, even in states where pot is legal, it would probably be found that desiring to smoke pot is not a reasonable accommodation for any position that requires operating machinery and vehicles, because of safety issues. If UPS stated that wearing a long beard, even restrained, was a safety issue, then this would not be an issue. The beard would prohibit the employee from doing the actual work assignment safely. However, since that does not seem to be the case, I think it’s most likely a good case for discrimination.

 

[Pythons]

Just to clarify your position, are you saying that you don’t agree with any anti-religious discrimination protection, or are you saying that it doesn’t exist?

I agree with discrimination protection, be it for Religion, Race, Age, Gender OR sexual orientation…
…I’m a fairly big supporter of those things.

Allegra:

Because I think it’s fairly obvious that practice of religion is protected by our nation’s laws, constitution, and legal precedent.

It is, has been, & should continue to be protected.

Allegra:

Speaking of red herrings, if Rastafarians wanted to sue anyone over smoking pot, they’d probably go after most state governments, and not UPS, because it’s actually illegal to smoke pot in most states.

It’s illegal in all States…
…Federal Law trumps State Law.

Allegra:

Secondly, even in states where pot is legal, it would probably be found that desiring to smoke pot is not a reasonable accommodation for any position that requires operating machinery and vehicles, because of safety issues. If UPS stated that wearing a long beard, even restrained, was a safety issue, then this would not be an issue. The beard would prohibit the employee from doing the actual work assignment safely. However, since that does not seem to be the case, I think it’s most likely a good case for
discrimination.

A Rastafarian will tell you that smoking pot is part of their Religious Practice…
…Pot is one of the illegal drugs according to the Federal Government.
…Is the Federal Government practicing discrimination?

A private company should the right to determine how they want their employees to present themselves to the companies customers…
…And if that means you have to wear a bow ties, no beards, whatever then SO BE IT.

This beard thing is being made about religion but has next to nothing to do with it…

As another poster already said - simply the colonization of America.

 

[Allegra]

I agree with discrimination protection, be it for Religion, Race, Age, Gender OR sexual orientation…
…I’m a fairly big supporter of those things.

It is, has been, & should continue to be protected.

It’s illegal in all States…
…Federal Law trumps State Law.

A Rastafarian will tell you that smoking pot is part of their Religious Practice…
…Pot is one of the illegal drugs according to the Federal Government.
…Is the Federal Government practicing discrimination?

A private company should the right to determine how they want their employees to present themselves to the companies customers…
…And if that means you have to wear a bow ties, no beards, whatever then SO BE IT.

This beard thing is being made about religion but has next to nothing to do with it…

As another poster already said - simply the colonization of America.

Rastafarians are a joke in that they are completely insincere and are simply mocking the legal protection of the right to practice one’s own faith. However, there IS a legal precedence for making exceptions for the use of controlled substances for religious ceremonies.

You are sidestepping my question. Does UPS have the right to say that their employees have to be white, because they think their customers prefer white delivery men? Both race and religion are protected by federal law.

 

[Pythons]

Rastafarians are a joke in that they are completely insincere and are simply mocking the legal protection of the right to practice one’s own faith. However, there IS a legal precedence for making exceptions for the use of controlled substances for religious ceremonies.

You are sidestepping my question. Does UPS have the right to say that their employees have to be white, because they think their customers prefer white delivery men? Both race and religion are protected by federal law.

No, they wouldn’t have the right to say that I answered that by my answer pertaining to Discrimination laws - which I agree with ]…
…Again, a companies policy which prohibits beards based on reasons outside of religion.
…Should not be a platform to launch litigation alleging discrimination for religious reasons.
…The prohibition of beards was not created to further a form of discrimination.
…It’s simply the policy.

UPS has “machines” that carry boxes and other forms of mail…
…A beard could be caught in one of those machines - pull the individuals head right into it!
…Even if this prohibition has nothing to do with a machine or safety it should be the Companies choice.

Again, it’s NOT discrimination to have a no beard policy…
…If the policy was created outside the context of religion.
…Perhaps the company needs an individual who works for it to fill in if the line gets too busy.
…Or maybe there is cross training so an employee can do other things which put them in proximity of “machines”.

This is like applying to be a tow truck driver and 4 months into your job you are dispatched in the middle of the night to pick up a stranded driver…
…The vehicles occupants include a blind person with a “service dog:”
…Because of your religion you will not allow a dog in the truck you were given to drive.

You get fired - then you sue the company you work for because you wouldn’t violate your religion!
…You should have started your own tow truck company.

You probably think I’m joking but I’m not.

 

[Allegra]

This is like applying to be a tow truck driver and 4 months into your job you are dispatched in the middle of the night to pick up a stranded driver…
…The vehicles occupants include a blind person with a “service dog:”
…Because of your religion you will not allow a dog in the truck you were given to drive.

You get fired - then you sue the company you work for because you wouldn’t violate your religion!
…You should have started your own tow truck company.

You probably think I’m joking but I’m not.

Even in this case, the person’s religion prevents them from performing a task that is part of the job. The beard in the case of the UPS driver does not. My father in law is actually a UPS driver and he does not load his own truck or operate the conveyor belt or fork lifts. There may be some other machine in question but it doesn’t sound like it because if there was UPS would have said so and that would have been the end of it. Also, there are special masks that men with beards can wear to restrain their beards in environments where they may cause a health risk or danger. I used to work for Taco Bell, which has a fairly strict policy on hair grooming, and any hair (beard included) that was over a certain length had to be restrained with a rubber band or hair net. We had a Sikh man who worked in the kitchen and he wore a mask that kept his mouth and chin covered for hygienic reasons. The same could be done if he was working on a machine.

 

[Pythons]

Even in this case, the person’s religion prevents them from performing a task that is part of the job. The beard in the case of the UPS driver does not. My father in law is actually a UPS driver and he does not load his own truck or operate the conveyor belt or fork lifts. There may be some other machine in question but it doesn’t sound like it because if there was UPS would have said so and that would have been the end of it. Also, there are special masks that men with beards can wear to restrain their beards in environments where they may cause a health risk or danger. I used to work for Taco Bell, which has a fairly strict policy on hair grooming, and any hair (beard included) that was over a certain length had to be restrained with a rubber band or hair net. We had a Sikh man who worked in the kitchen and he wore a mask that kept his mouth and chin covered for hygienic reasons. The same could be done if he was working on a machine.

Well, perhaps there are enough people similarly minded as you are that will throw the book at UPS…
…Myself, I would dismiss the lawsuit and instruct the individual to do a little research prior to applying to companies that violate his religion.

This is like the COSTCO employee who refused to touch any pork products and as a “new employee” would just walk away from the checkout if someone bought a pork roast…
…“In my America” I would have fired that person on the spot.

Look, no one said this guy “had to work at UPS”, he is the one who applied to them…
…They said they had a no beard policy & end up getting sued.
…Eventually the pendulum will swing the other direction & when it does…

 

[Allegra]

Well, perhaps there are enough people similarly minded as you are that will throw the book at UPS…
…Myself, I would dismiss the lawsuit and instruct the individual to do a little research prior to applying to companies that violate his religion.

This is like the COSTCO employee who refused to touch any pork products and as a “new employee” would just walk away from the checkout if someone bought a pork roast…
…“In my America” I would have fired that person on the spot.

Look, no one said this guy “had to work at UPS”, he is the one who applied to them…
…They said they had a no beard policy & end up getting sued.
…Eventually the pendulum will swing the other direction & when it does…

Again, COSTCO sells pork products. Handling pork products is a requirement in order to do the job. There’s no reason a person has to be shaved in order to deliver packages.

 

[Pythons]

Again, COSTCO sells pork products. Handling pork products is a requirement in order to do the job. There’s no reason a person has to be shaved in order to deliver packages.

I had a friend who used to work for UPS ( part time for 3 weeks around Christmas )…
…She would help throw freight then jump on a truck and help the driver.
…Most drivers @ UPS MOVE UP from throwing freight…

I suppose that would preclude the driver from doing “anything else” the company might need…
…Or expect an employee to do ( like helping out doing something else ).
…Especially putting freight ( like packages to be shipped ) on a conveyor belt.
…I guess we could count that guy out couldn’t we?

 

[Allegra]

I had a friend who used to work for UPS ( part time for 3 weeks around Christmas )…
…She would help throw freight then jump on a truck and help the driver.
…Most drivers @ UPS MOVE UP from throwing freight…

I suppose that would preclude the driver from doing “anything else” the company might need…
…Or expect an employee to do ( like helping out doing something else ).
…Especially putting freight ( like packages to be shipped ) on a conveyor belt.
…I guess we could count that guy out couldn’t we?

Like I said, drivers don’t load the truck, nor are they generally laying around looking for extra work to be done. They have a very tight schedule from the moment they get there and turn the keys, until the moment they get back from their run. If they go over their time, they can be penalized for using too many overtime hours. That’s why they need seasonal workers to help out at Christmas time. It’s physically impossible to get their route done without the extra help. There’s nothing in the article that suggests that the person was applying for a seasonal position that would require loading the freight. It specifically says he was looking at a driver position.

 

[Pythons]

If anything this will serve to curb business from hiring Muslims…
…Mind you they won’t advertise it - they will just select the applications of others.
…It shouldn’t be this way - this guy is making life tough on other, less devout, Muslims.

Like I said, drivers don’t load the truck, nor are they generally laying around looking for extra work to be done. They have a very tight schedule from the moment they get there and turn the keys, until the moment they get back from their run. If they go over their time, they can be penalized for using too many overtime hours. That’s why they need seasonal workers to help out at Christmas time. It’s physically impossible to get their route done without the extra help. There’s nothing in the article that suggests that the person was applying for a seasonal position that would require loading the freight. It specifically says he was looking at a driver position.

 

[Allegra]

If anything this will serve to curb business from hiring Muslims…
…Mind you they won’t advertise it - they will just select the applications of others.
…It shouldn’t be this way - this guy is making life tough on other, less devout, Muslims.

That’s the same argument they use for requiring businesses not to fire women when they are pregnant. They just won’t hire women. How would UPS know if the applicant is Muslim or not? There are lots of Muslim groups that don’t have a rule about shaving their beard. There are also a lot of Muslims of African descent that don’t look anything like the stereotypical Middle Eastern Muslim and their names on their applications are something like Michael Patterson. How would UPS know they were Muslim?

 

[Pythons]

Not a good comparison - not at all…
…UPS has MANY Muslims in it’s employ.
…Evidently it hasn’t had ( up to this point ) Fundamentalist or Devout Muslims in it’s employ.

I will be following this case for certain!

That’s the same argument they use for requiring businesses not to fire women when they are pregnant. They just won’t hire women. How would UPS know if the applicant is Muslim or not? There are lots of Muslim groups that don’t have a rule about shaving their beard. There are also a lot of Muslims of African descent that don’t look anything like the stereotypical Middle Eastern Muslim and their names on their applications are something like Michael Patterson. How would UPS know they were Muslim?