Urbi et orbi

[JReducation]

The official languages of Vatican City are Italian and Latin. Latin is only used for liturgy and writing. Contrary to popular myths, Latin has not been used in conversation at the Vatican for more than a century.

Prior to the existence of the technology for simultaneous translations, large events were broken down by language groups. There were five major language groups: Spanish, English, Italian, French and German.

Today, the language groups continue to exist. But when you have a large assembly of bishops, they use headphones with translators. They have since added Arabic, because we rarely have separate gathering for the Eastern Catholic clergy. That was the case, but is not so common today.

If you are going to work in Vatican City they require that you speak Italian and they strongly recommend Spanish, not English. You should have a working knowledge of Latin, but you’re no longer expected to be able to converse in it.

For this reason Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI are much more fluent in Spanish than in English. They do a lot of work in Spanish and they do many liturgies in Italian and Spanish. The Latin Americans and Spanish bishops far outnumber the English speaking bishops. English speaking Catholics make up only 5% of the Church. Spanish speakers make up almost 30%, just a little under.

The Africans are coming up in numbers. The language distribution may change soon. Only two African countries speak Spanish. Most speak English or French as a second language.

The Urbi and Orbi greeting used to be delivered in Latin and Italian, but the Latin was dropped by Pope Paul VI so as not to offend the Eastern Catholics. Everyone after him has followed suit. The logic is that the greeting is for the city and the world. The City speaks Italian and the world is not Roman and neither are all Catholics.

One of the wishes of Pope Paul was to bring the Eastern hierarchy into a closer relationship with the papacy and with the Latin Church, without Latinizing them. No one can complain about the use of Italian, because it’s the national language of Vatican City, whereas Latin is the language of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Catholic Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[Marie5890]

The official languages of Vatican City are Italian and Latin. Latin is only used for liturgy and writing. Contrary to popular myths, Latin has not been used in conversation at the Vatican for more than a century.

Prior to the existence of the technology for simultaneous translations, large events were broken down by language groups. There were five major language groups: Spanish, English, Italian, French and German.

Today, the language groups continue to exist. But when you have a large assembly of bishops, they use headphones with translators. They have since added Arabic, because we rarely have separate gathering for the Eastern Catholic clergy. That was the case, but is not so common today.

If you are going to work in Vatican City they require that you speak Italian and they strongly recommend Spanish, not English. You should have a working knowledge of Latin, but you’re no longer expected to be able to converse in it.

For this reason Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI are much more fluent in Spanish than in English. They do a lot of work in Spanish and they do many liturgies in Italian and Spanish. The Latin Americans and Spanish bishops far outnumber the English speaking bishops. English speaking Catholics make up only 5% of the Church. Spanish speakers make up almost 30%, just a little under.

The Africans are coming up in numbers. The language distribution may change soon. Only two African countries speak Spanish. Most speak English or French as a second language.

The Urbi and Orbi greeting used to be delivered in Latin and Italian, but the Latin was dropped by Pope Paul VI so as not to offend the Eastern Catholics. Everyone after him has followed suit. The logic is that the greeting is for the city and the world. The City speaks Italian and the world is not Roman and neither are all Catholics.

One of the wishes of Pope Paul was to bring the Eastern hierarchy into a closer relationship with the papacy and with the Latin Church, without Latinizing them. No one can complain about the use of Italian, because it’s the national language of Vatican City, whereas Latin is the language of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Catholic Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Thanks for the explanation, Bro. JR.

The Church never strays from being practical and we tend to forget that when we romanticize how we think things “should” be according to our perceptions and personal biases.

 

[ProVobis]

For this reason Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI are much more fluent in Spanish than in English.

I heard there was a lot of Polish spoken in the Vatican during JPII’s term.

 

[JReducation]

I heard there was a lot of Polish spoken in the Vatican during JPII’s term.

There was, because there were many Polish employees brought in. The situation in Poland was grave. The Holy Father gave many Poles an opportunity to leave Poland on diplomatic visas. To do this, they had to be hired to work in Vatican City, since Vatican City was issuing the visas.

The cute thing is that Vatican City can issue the visas, but there is no place for these folks to live. So they have to live in Italy. It was very clever. They lived in Italy and had the benefit of whatever Rome has to offer, but Italian immigration could do nothing about it, because they were there at the invitation of Vatican City and they were not working in Italy, but in Vatican City. Vatican City has no contractual obligation to employ only Italians.

Bl. John Paul was very clever. My kind of man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[ProVobis]

One of the wishes of Pope Paul was to bring the Eastern hierarchy into a closer relationship with the papacy and with the Latin Church, without Latinizing them. No one can complain about the use of Italian, because it’s the national language of Vatican City, whereas Latin is the language of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Catholic Church.

I wonder if this was one of the reasons Pope Pius X Italianized the Latin pronunciations.

 

[JReducation]

I wonder if this was one of the reasons Pope Pius X Italianized the Latin pronunciations.

Either that or he just did not have a good Latin accent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[YoungTradCath]

Either that or he just did not have a good Latin accent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Ecclesiastical and Classical pronunciations are vastly different. But I think you already knew that. I actually prefer the Classical pronunciation.

 

[JReducation]

Ecclesiastical and Classical pronunciations are vastly different. But I think you already knew that. I actually prefer the Classical pronunciation.

In the seminary, we had to learn both. One of my professors, an excellent teacher of Latin, with a great sense of humor, always said that the reason for the existence of Church Latin was dumb priests. He was a De La Salle Christian Brother. They’re very well educated, better than most priests.

There may be some truth to this. Back in the Middle Ages, priests were not well educated, unless they were Benedictine, Franciscan or Dominican. Other than that, they barely had the equivalent of a middle school education today. The Romance language were emerging. Originally, these languages were really bad Latin.

It may be that some of these boys who became priests applied the pronunciation of the Romance language, especially Italian, to Latin. Since they were so poorly educated, they could not tell the difference between good Latin and their Latin.

This certainly happened with many ecclesial terms brought into the modern languages. Did you know that there was not such word as “friar”. The term was Frater. It was cannibalized into friar. The first Franciscans were called Ordinem Fratres Minores. Order of Leser Brothers. Suddenly, someone came out with Order of Friars Minor. Talk about cannibalizing Latin.

The “ch” sound given to the Latin “C” is actually from Italian. The Latin “C” is a hard sound, like a “K”.

The original use of the expression “urbi et orbi” was born when the Western world adopted Latin as its common language, replacing Greek. The reason was that there was no Latin word for church. Ecclesia is Greek, not Latin, originally written Ekklesia.

To speak to the “urbi et orbi” meant to speak to the universal church.

Ecclesia was retained from the Greek.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[YoungTradCath]

In the seminary, we had to learn both. One of my professors, an excellent teacher of Latin, with a great sense of humor, always said that the reason for the existence of Church Latin was dumb priests. He was a De La Salle Christian Brother. They’re very well educated, better than most priests.

There may be some truth to this. Back in the Middle Ages, priests were not well educated, unless they were Benedictine, Franciscan or Dominican. Other than that, they barely had the equivalent of a middle school education today. The Romance language were emerging. Originally, these languages were really bad Latin.

It may be that some of these boys who became priests applied the pronunciation of the Romance language, especially Italian, to Latin. Since they were so poorly educated, they could not tell the difference between good Latin and their Latin.

This certainly happened with many ecclesial terms brought into the modern languages. Did you know that there was not such word as “friar”. The term was Frater. It was cannibalized into friar. The first Franciscans were called Ordinem Fratres Minores. Order of Leser Brothers. Suddenly, someone came out with Order of Friars Minor. Talk about cannibalizing Latin.

The “ch” sound given to the Latin “C” is actually from Italian. The Latin “C” is a hard sound, like a “K”.

The original use of the expression “urbi et orbi” was born when the Western world adopted Latin as its common language, replacing Greek. The reason was that there was no Latin word for church. Ecclesia is Greek, not Latin, originally written Ekklesia.

To speak to the “urbi et orbi” meant to speak to the universal church.

Ecclesia was retained from the Greek.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

What interesting tidbits, Br!

 

[JReducation]

What interesting tidbits, Br!

These tidbits help when people get upset over something that is simple to explain.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[YoungTradCath]

These tidbits help when people get upset over something that is simple to explain.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Well. I didn’t mean that sarcastically if that’s how you took it.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Personally I prefer ecclesial pronunciation most of the time, with the exception of the letter “c” sometimes being pronounced as a “ch”.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Personally I prefer ecclesial pronunciation most of the time, with the exception of the letter “c” sometimes being pronounced as a “ch”.

If you listen to conversational Latin, it sounds more natural, IMO, in the Classical pronunciation.

 

[ProVobis]

The reason was that there was no Latin word for church. Ecclesia is Greek, not Latin, originally written Ekklesia.

There’s an interesting etymology behind the word “church.” Actually comes from the Greek
“kyraikon” which is the house of God. But pastors needed to explain to people that it was not a building but people of God.

navigatorsdetroit.com/Paper%202%20-%20Study%20on%20THE%20CHURCH%20-%20EKKLESIA%20OIKOS%20KYRIAKON.pdf

 

[JReducation]

Well. I didn’t mean that sarcastically if that’s how you took it.

Not at all.

There’s an interesting etymology behind the word “church.” Actually comes from the Greek
“kyraikon” which is the house of God. But pastors needed to explain to people that it was not a building but people of God.

navigatorsdetroit.com/Paper%202%20-%20Study%20on%20THE%20CHURCH%20-%20EKKLESIA%20OIKOS%20KYRIAKON.pdf

That’s why the “urbi and orbi” worked in the Latin. It refers to humanity. After all, who are the People of God?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Irish_Polock]

There’s an interesting etymology behind the word “church.” Actually comes from the Greek
“kyraikon” which is the house of God. But pastors needed to explain to people that it was not a building but people of God.

navigatorsdetroit.com/Paper%202%20-%20Study%20on%20THE%20CHURCH%20-%20EKKLESIA%20OIKOS%20KYRIAKON.pdf

Just a thought, but I believe the Scottish word “kirk” came from the same Greek root word as church. Am I correct in this thought?

 

[Paxvobis]

Not to get off the topic of the thread, but before 1929 its status was disputed, and it de facto operated as its own country anyway. The Lateran Treaty merely confirmed the Vatican’s position on the status of Vatican City (and Italy’s position on the status of the Papal States).

I feel betrayed. The History Channel fooled me!

 

[ProVobis]

If you listen to conversational Latin, it sounds more natural, IMO, in the Classical pronunciation.

The Classical pronuncation would have a word such as affidavit pronounced af-id-ay-Wit. Are you sure you want that?

 

[JReducation]

The Classical pronuncation would have a word such as affidavit pronounced af-id-ay-Wit. Are you sure you want that?

Actually, Classical Latin sounds just like Spanish. Of the Romance Languages, Spanish has actually kept all of the original Latin vowel sounds. Affidavit would be pronounced with short vowel sounds. The “E” in classical Latin is not “ay” as we sing in Venite Adoremus. It’s the “e” as in “et” I don’t know how we turned “e” from a short ‘e’ sound to an ‘ay’.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[ProVobis]

The Classical pronuncation would have a word such as affidavit pronounced af-id-ay-Wit. Are you sure you want that?

Correction: Classical L would be ahf-id-ah-whit. Anglophone: ahf-eed-ay-vit. Or am I wrong again?