Urgent Sterilization/Mortal Sin Question

[PaulinVA]

Joe,

She’s serious about this. She tells me she cant trust me anymore because I’ve been refusing to do it. Back when she was sick the last time, I told her I would do it. I mainly said it to calm her down and buy some time. I was wrong to say that and I’ve told her so. I am extremely hurt by her giving me this ultimatum. I told her that the consequences would be just as bad if I went through with it (overwhelming guilt, disconnect from God & the Church, example for our kids, destroying our intimacy, etc.). I told her our marriage would be in greater jeopardy. The only thing I can control is keeping us together by not leaving her or by doing what she asks to keep us together. I love her and sympathize with her greatly. She says she loves me but sees no alternative. If I don’t do this for her, it will change the way she sees me.

Have you told her that her insistence at you committing a mortal sin has changed the way YOU see HER? You guys need counselling. Not to solve the immediate problem, but to get you on course again.

If I was a woman, and I was deathly afraid of getting pregnant, a vasectomy wouldn’t be enough. I’d insist on vasectomy, condom, and diaphragm. As a Catholic I would consider abstinence until the situation changed. I say that as someone who recently abstained for over a year during menopause.

 

[Joe_5859]

Joe,

She’s serious about this. She tells me she cant trust me anymore because I’ve been refusing to do it. Back when she was sick the last time, I told her I would do it. I mainly said it to calm her down and buy some time. I was wrong to say that and I’ve told her so. I am extremely hurt by her giving me this ultimatum. I told her that the consequences would be just as bad if I went through with it (overwhelming guilt, disconnect from God & the Church, example for our kids, destroying our intimacy, etc.). I told her our marriage would be in greater jeopardy. The only thing I can control is keeping us together by not leaving her or by doing what she asks to keep us together. I love her and sympathize with her greatly. She says she loves me but sees no alternative. If I don’t do this for her, it will change the way she sees me.

So she wants you to act against your faith and undergo surgery for her, but she isn’t willing to talk to a priest for you?

 

[Daddyof4]

Corki (and everyone else),

Thanks for your replies, but I am already fully aware that she shouldn’t be doing this. I can’t change that. The question now lies with me. This is what I am faced with - discussing her motives, how wrong she is, etc, etc. does not change my dilemna. Please pray for me and my family. The only sad alternative is to be celibate in our marriage. My wife won’t live like that. How will I explain this to my kids if I don’t do this and our marriage ends? Gee kids, I’m sorry your lives were irreversibly damaged, but at least MY soul is saved and I kept to church teaching. I don’t mean to make light of this, but this is not as easy a decision as everyone makes it out to be. How would you (everyone reading this) react to this? Would you give in to save your family? Or would you hold firm, no matter what the consequence to your marriage and children?

IF I do this, is is really the same as if I did it for the sole purpose of avoiding more children??? I actually love having children. It’s the most amazing thing to me - a true gift from God. I’ve always wanted a large family and God has blessed me with four children.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I’m sorry you are going through this.

As others have said, vasectomies are not 100% “fool-proof” either. I had a friend in high school who was the happy “surprise” that followed his own father’s vasectomy. It happens.

Personally, if things were that dire for the prospects of my wife’s health, I could not in good conscience do anything that would jeopardize it. I would need to be 100% sure. And the only 100% certainty is abstinence (as much as that stinks).

I’d also be extremely hurt if my wife gave me an ultimatum and threatened divorce. That is not the action of a loving spouse. Do you truly think she would follow through with that threat or is it just the emotion/aggravation talking? It is very disrespectful for her to put you in such a situation. Love is unconditional. It’s not, “I’ll love you if you do what I want you to do and only if you do what I want you to do.”

This is something that jumps out to me, along with something you said earlier, OP.

You said that she had brought this up after kid #3, but then it was discarded/set aside until kid #4 came along. You needn’t answer this, but what happened between #3 and #4? Is it possible that she feels as though you ignored her fears and worries after one difficult pregnancy, and the result was that she had the horrible experience that was pregnancy #4? If so, she may fear that this is the only way she won’t get pregnant again because you’ll just blow off her concerns. (Not that you will, but she may feel that way.) If that’s at all the case, can you sit down and apologize for not dealing with this sooner, but reassure her that nothing will happen to her like that again?

She refuses counseling based on a single bad experience, she refuses to talk to a third party, she has set this ultimatum–is this typical behavior for her? Has she threatened divorce over other matters before?

It sounds as though she is acting out of a desperate, desperate terror of being pregnant again, rather like a trapped, hurt animal. Trapped animals aren’t rational–they’re just terrified. This is why I asked about PPD/PPA; she sounds as though she feels as though this is a life-or-death situation (which it is), and you’re asking her to die. What I’m trying to suggest is treating that trapped, wounded animal inside her: talk gently to her, tell her how much you love her, tell her that you, too, are worried about her health, that she’s safe, that you’ll work on this together, and that while there is no hurry, you also will put work in every. single. day. until you can figure out a solution together. At this point, postponing/ignoring this any further will do a LOT of harm, and will almost certainly lead to divorce. If she agrees just to wait a little, make sure to bring this, and what progress has been made, up frequently (like, daily or every other day) to reassure her that you are concerned about this too and that you’re working on it.

Has she actually talked to a NaPro doctor, or did she, like she did with suggestions about counseling, just decide it won’t work? Irregular cycles are one of the primary issues treated by NaPro docs.

 

[Joe_5859]

Corki (and everyone else),

Thanks for your replies, but I am already fully aware that she shouldn’t be doing this. I can’t change that. The question now lies with me. This is what I am faced with - discussing her motives, how wrong she is, etc, etc. does not change my dilemna. Please pray for me and my family. The only sad alternative is to be celibate in our marriage. My wife won’t live like that. How will I explain this to my kids if I don’t do this and our marriage ends? Gee kids, I’m sorry your lives were irreversibly damaged, but at least MY soul is saved and I kept to church teaching. I don’t mean to make light of this, but this is not as easy a decision as everyone makes it out to be. How would you (everyone reading this) react to this? Would you give in to save your family? Or would you hold firm, no matter what the consequence to your marriage and children?

IF I do this, is is really the same as if I did it for the sole purpose of avoiding more children??? I actually love having children. It’s the most amazing thing to me - a true gift from God. I’ve always wanted a large family and God has blessed me with four children.

I don’t think anyone is meaning to imply that this is an easy decision. It most certainly is not. But it is the only decision that is morally permissible.

I will pray for you and your family.

 

[nodito]

The only thing I can control is keeping us together by not leaving her or by doing what she asks to keep us together.

In the end, you can only control yourself and whether you choose to sin or not.

Are you familiar with 2 Maccabees 7? A mother with her seven children were arrested for refusing to eat pork and the mother encouraged her children to remain steadfast rather than disregard the Lord’s commands, even though she had to watch her children martyred. We should prefer death to sin, even at the expense of losing those we love.
2 Maccabees 7:20:

Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother who, seeing her seven sons perish in a single day, bore it courageously because of her hope in the Lord.

It will take courage, for sure. May God help you remain steadfast in love for the truth.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Joe,

She’s serious about this. She tells me she cant trust me anymore because I’ve been refusing to do it. Back when she was sick the last time, I told her I would do it. I mainly said it to calm her down and buy some time. I was wrong to say that and I’ve told her so. I am extremely hurt by her giving me this ultimatum. I told her that the consequences would be just as bad if I went through with it (overwhelming guilt, disconnect from God & the Church, example for our kids, destroying our intimacy, etc.). I told her our marriage would be in greater jeopardy. The only thing I can control is keeping us together by not leaving her or by doing what she asks to keep us together. I love her and sympathize with her greatly. She says she loves me but sees no alternative. If I don’t do this for her, it will change the way she sees me.

Ah, okay. We posted at about the same time. This answers some of the questions I asked.

Let me be frank: you essentially blew off her pain and fear before, and she doesn’t trust you not to do so again. That doesn’t excuse her reaction, but it clarifies it. She doesn’t think she can trust you not to cause her to undergo that kind of pregnancy and its associated medical horrors again. This might even be a subconscious way of “getting back” at you for that: you failed her before, she’ll make sure you don’t again.

What I said just now still applies. Some serious apologizing for the above, followed by a talk about waiting for a little and discussing things with a third party is in order.

One last point: she says the reason she’d leave you is that she couldn’t have sex until menopause. If she is a faithful Catholic in other areas, she won’t be having sex after she leaves you, either. This is a slash-and-burn solution to a long-term problem: tempting, especially when dealing with PPD or PPA or just plain depression or anxiety (her behaviors point strongly to some combination of the above), but not a good idea.

 

[Corki]

Corki (and everyone else),

IF I do this, is is really the same as if I did it for the sole purpose of avoiding more children??? I actually love having children. It’s the most amazing thing to me - a true gift from God. I’ve always wanted a large family and God has blessed me with four children.

Yes. Your goal is sterilization. That doesn’t change just because of rationalization. The same basic moral principle applies - one can never do evil even with good intent or for “good” results.

How will I explain this to my kids if I don’t do this and our marriage ends? Gee kids, I’m sorry your lives were irreversibly damaged, but at least MY soul is saved and I kept to church teaching.

Why would you feel you need to take the blame? If your wife really would go through with a divorce and if you need to give your kids an explanation (when they are MUCH MUCH older) isn’t it more truthful to say that even though you both vowed “for better or worse” your wife, in the end, wasn’t able to keep that vow?

 

[Blessedwithfive]

I must be missing something but I know it’s wrong but you could still get absolution from confession. I would take my chances and got to confession after. Just my opinion…not catholic morality. Plus isn’t there something about following your conscience…

 

[nodito]

I must be missing something but I know it’s wrong but you could still get absolution from confession. I would take my chances and got to confession after. Just my opinion…not catholic morality. Plus isn’t there something about following your conscience…

Yes, but his conscience is telling him it’s wrong. That’s why he’s so conflicted.

Planning to commit a sin and then just confess afterwards is the added sin of presumption of God’s forgiveness. If you could do that and all became well again, you could plan to commit any sin. Abortion, homicide, theft… we’ll just confess afterwards and make it go away, right? All sin has consequences, even if even eventually return to a state of grace.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I must be missing something but I know it’s wrong but you could still get absolution from confession. I would take my chances and got to confession after. Just my opinion…not catholic morality. Plus isn’t there something about following your conscience…

Your well-informed conscience. The OP’s conscience knows this is wrong.

He’d be “taking his chances” on spending an eternity in a very, very warm location. Life is short, not to mention unpredictable: he could get hit by a bus, he could (however unlikely) die during the procedure, he could not feel genuinely sorry for this sin, and therefore not receive absolution for it. Eternity is a long, long time.

His wife has offered him a terrible choice, but that doesn’t excuse committing this sin.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Yes, but his conscience is telling him it’s wrong. That’s why he’s so conflicted.

Planning to commit a sin and then just confess afterwards is the added sin of presumption of God’s forgiveness. If you could do that and all became well again, you could plan to commit any sin. Abortion, homicide, theft… we’ll just confess afterwards and make it go away, right? All sin has consequences, even if even eventually return to a state of grace.

Exactly. And grace is a gift, not something available for the taking. He might not have the grace of repentance and, correspondingly, of absolution.

 

[CthgeDelendaEst]

Your wife is playing hardball because she knows the courts are on her side. If you don’t do what she wants, she will take your kids and your house, and you get to pay alimony and child support. As a faithful Catholic, you will be required to be celibate for the rest of your life (or hers), while she will probably be having sex with another man (in your house) in short order, and her conscience won’t bother her at all.

That paragraph is harsh. But it’s what you are facing. Your wife has put you in a true catch-22. If you give in, you stay married, and (most importantly) are there every day for the kids. But I sense there will be great resentment on your part and I think your relationship will never truly be the same. If you hold firm, your wife leaves you, and it’s extremely likely that another man is going to end up raising your kids.

What a tough call. You have my sympathy and prayers.

 

[SecretGarden]

Your wife sounds scared and that is the reason why she is pushing for the vasectomy.

Let’s put aside the theology for a moment and look at what she has been through with the last 4 pregnancies.

C-sections aren’t easy to recover from when one has a newborn baby and she has done this four times. The poor lady has been on bed rest, has had to spend time in a nursing home in order so that she can protect her unborn child from being born too early. She has gone through a lot as a woman. I think she deserves a gold metal for what she has survived.

The fact that your doctors have told you she will not survive another pregnancy- gives her very good reasons to act this way. She is probably pushing divorce because she is scared to death that she will get pregnant and what does she do then? Does she have an abortion because this child could kill her? We know the church’s stances on abortion and considering her situation, I think we need to love her instead of judging her. She loves her children and she wants to be there for them when they get older. Plus she is acting responsibly because she wants to prevent another child from entering the world so that she can be a mother to the other four children, especially the youngest which seems to have some health issues which takes up her energy.
This is nobel of her and I think she needs to be respected for it.

We talk about about marriages where the couples don’t have sex with each other. This is easier said than done. The fact that she wants to have sex with her husband shows you how much she loves him but she is afraid until he has his operation.

I think the two of you need to go into couple’s counsellings and talk out some of your fears. Obviously the husband has his own concerns and fears. He is against it but I think in this case, he has to think of her, her well being and the sacrifices her body has made to give him four wonderful blessings. You could even tell her, that you will consider it but you want to talk some things out with the professionals. Get your information, and talk it out.

If both of you stick to your guns, this marriage will end because neither of you were willing to compromise. You have to ask yourself what is your marriage worth? How much do you love her?

We can’t push church doctrine in this case when she has given so much for her family. Sometimes we need to look at a situation from a pastoral eyes and see how scared she is and how much she wants to be there for her children.

Rules are there for a reason and in this case sometimes they need to be broken for the safety of the mother.

 

[Blessedwithfive]

Yes, but his conscience is telling him it’s wrong. That’s why he’s so conflicted.

Planning to commit a sin and then just confess afterwards is the added sin of presumption of God’s forgiveness. If you could do that and all became well again, you could plan to commit any sin. Abortion, homicide, theft… we’ll just confess afterwards and make it go away, right? All sin has consequences, even if even eventually return to a state of grace.

I agree it is wrong. He does too. But as far as I know even the sin of presumption is forgiveable. Right? Kinda a loop hole I know but it is forgiveable and pardon can will be given. Might he spent a little more time in purgatory? I don’t know but given the circumstances I would be willing to take my chances. Life is full of hard choices but I would defiantly do it for the good of the family.

 

[nodito]

I agree it is wrong. He does too. But as far as I know even the sin of presumption is forgiveable. Right? Kinda a loop hole I know but it is forgiveable and pardon can will be given. Might he spent a little more time in purgatory? I don’t know but given the circumstances I would be willing to take my chances. Life is full of hard choices but I would defiantly do it for the good of the family.

See, I disagree that this would be for the good of his family. I think it’s like ingesting poison because you’re hungry and then realizing that you only hurt yourself and your loved ones and it’s too late to do anything about it.

 

[Daddyof4]

Thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. For the record, I don’t think of my wife as planning on bringing another man into our bedroom and raising our children (after divorce). While that would be horrible, I don’t think of her like that - I know my wife. On the other hand, I’m truly wondering if mortal sin applies. The rules of mortal sin are: 1. Must be a serious matter (THIS IS) 2. I must be aware that it is serious (I AM) & 3. I must freely commit it. Although I would be walking into that surgery under my own power and giving the doctor my consent, I do not believe I am FREELY committing this act. I feel sort of as if my family is being held hostage and I must pay the ransom. I am not criticizing my wife by saying this because she’s been through hell and back for me and our children, but this is how I feel about this decision. Maybe I’m having a case of wishful thinking to excuse this action - I don’t know. The thought of having this procedure done makes me ill to my core.

 

[Pax2u]

If a spouse threatens to divorce you if you don’t commit a sin that goes against your deep religious beliefs…then that person does not truly love you. If you give in on this, do you really think something else won’t come along that will also be “divorce-worthy” in her mind?

I would never give in to that kind of blackmail. There’s no promise of love or security in it. And you will have altered your body, your fertility for something that may very well not be there in the future anyway.

 

[CthgeDelendaEst]

Thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. For the record, I don’t think of my wife as planning on bringing another man into our bedroom and raising our children (after divorce). While that would be horrible, I don’t think of her like that - I know my wife. On the other hand, I’m truly wondering if mortal sin applies. The rules of mortal sin are: 1. Must be a serious matter (THIS IS) 2. I must be aware that it is serious (I AM) & 3. I must freely commit it. Although I would be walking into that surgery under my own power and giving the doctor my consent, I do not believe I am FREELY committing this act. I feel sort of as if my family is being held hostage and I must pay the ransom. I am not criticizing my wife by saying this because she’s been through hell and back for me and our children, but this is how I feel about this decision. Maybe I’m having a case of wishful thinking to excuse this action - I don’t know. The thought of having this procedure done makes me ill to my core.

The reason I mentioned another man was not to suggest she has one in mind. Your wife’s stated reason for divorcing you is she won’t live in a sexless marriage (sex interests her, which is usually a good quality in a wife). Therefore, one must infer that when the divorce is final she will look to remarry, because if she was willing to be celibate why divorce?

Your wife has been through a great deal for the family, and you rightly honor her for that. Perhaps try to articulate to her that what she is asking you to do risks turning that into bitterness and resentment.

 

[nodito]

Thanks everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut. For the record, I don’t think of my wife as planning on bringing another man into our bedroom and raising our children (after divorce). While that would be horrible, I don’t think of her like that - I know my wife. On the other hand, I’m truly wondering if mortal sin applies. The rules of mortal sin are: 1. Must be a serious matter (THIS IS) 2. I must be aware that it is serious (I AM) & 3. I must freely commit it. Although I would be walking into that surgery under my own power and giving the doctor my consent, I do not believe I am FREELY committing this act. I feel sort of as if my family is being held hostage and I must pay the ransom. I am not criticizing my wife by saying this because she’s been through hell and back for me and our children, but this is how I feel about this decision. Maybe I’m having a case of wishful thinking to excuse this action - I don’t know. The thought of having this procedure done makes me ill to my core.

I wonder if it would help you to consider how your reaction would change if she were asking you to commit some other objectively grave sin. Suppose, for example, she were asking you to euthanize a parent, and holding your marriage hostage unless you did? Or suppose she threatened you with divorce unless you formally accused an innocent person of a crime that she had committed in secret? Where is the limit?