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Blessedwithfive
Guest
Yup, that is how I see it. But I do have some issues with the whole birth control issue.
It is a sin, I get that, but it is defiantly forgiveable. God is merciful.
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It is a sin, I get that, but it is defiantly forgiveable. God is merciful.
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1ke
Guest
But you **are **putting your marriage first. Your job is to get your spouse to heaven. And, the road to heaven is not paved with vasectomies.I’m not putting her or our marriage first.
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Daddyof4
Guest
Please don’t judge my wife. No one knows what’s in her mind. To say that she truly does not love me, or that she will be looking to remarry after the divorce is being presumptuous, the same thing that I’m being accused of when determining if I’ll be absolved from God. Only my wife and God really know what’s in her heart and mind. This situation cannot be compared to any other sin (euthanizing/killing a parent, falsley accusing an innocent person??!!!) That is RIDICULOUS and my wife would not have an intent like that. There’s a reason why there are different categories of sin. Even mortal sins are not all equal.
I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, but maybe I shouldn’t have put myself in a position to solicit some of these responses.
I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, but maybe I shouldn’t have put myself in a position to solicit some of these responses.
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Daddyof4
Guest
That’s right 1ke, not only would I be putting my marriage first, I would be putting my whole family first. AND WHO ARE YOU anyway? The road to heaven is not paved with vasectomies? What kind of self righteous SOB are you? Who says that to someone? You are reminding me of the Pharisess that Jesus admonished? I may be considering a wrong action, but would Jesus say that to me? Or would he minister in a different way.
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1ke
Guest
No I didn’t mean it that way at all. Sorry, the written word sometimes just comes across wrong. I truly apologize.That’s right 1ke, not only would I be putting my marriage first, I would be putting my whole family first. AND WHO ARE YOU anyway? The road to heaven is not paved with vasectomies? What kind of self righteous SOB are you? Who says that to someone? You are reminding me of the Pharisess that Jesus admonished? I may be considering a wrong action, but would Jesus say that to me? Or would he minister in a different way.
I meant that you are doing the RIGHT thing by discerning, by not getting the vasectomy. Because that will be a *short term *relief of the situation but it will NOT be good for your marriage in the long run. And certainly not good for either of your souls.
I apologize. Rereading it, it certainly does sound flip and that wasn’t my intention at all.
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Daddyof4
Guest
That’s ok. I apologize for insulting you. I guess I’m just a bit overwhelmed right now.
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1ke
Guest
No problem. Really, sometime my brain and fingers aren’t well connected.That’s ok. I apologize for insulting you. I guess I’m just a bit overwhelmed right now.
I can only imagine the stress you are under. It can’t be easy.
I don’t think the other posters were trying to imply your wife was a bad person. I think what they were trying to do was give you some hyperbole situations which might help your wife see the unfair position she’s put you in and that she is indeed attempting extortion and blackmail, which isn’t healthy for a marriage no matter if it’s big or small stakes. I think resentment and bitterness are bound to be there, no one wants to be backed into a corner as you have been.
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nodito
Guest
Daddyof4, I was offering those by way of analogy, not suggesting that your wife would actually ask them of you. I realize your wife would never ask you to kill someone. What I’m suggesting is that there is probably some other sin that is of comparable moral seriousness as sterilization (whatever it is) and it may help you evaluate your current situation more objectively if you could step outside all the intricacies and details of your present dilemma and imagine instead how you ought to react if you were being asked to commit some other objectively grave sin.This situation cannot be compared to any other sin (euthanizing/killing a parent, falsley accusing an innocent person??!!!) That is RIDICULOUS and my wife would not have an intent like that. There’s a reason why there are different categories of sin. Even mortal sins are not all equal.
In other words, you agree that sterilization is grave matter. You wonder if you would be fully culpable because you feel pressured to act and do not think you are choosing to act freely. But suppose there was some other objectively wrong thing that you felt coerced to do. If you don’t like my suggestions pick your own. What is as grave and as permanent as sterilization?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
NFP can be used with irregular cycles. It is the thing God has mercifully given the married couples in your situation. What is not ok is mutilating yourself and endangering your soul. What kind of wife wants that for her husband?My wife and I are in a terrible situation. Let me start by saying that we are married in the Church and have 4 children. Each time my wife gets pregnant, she suffers from a condition called Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG). Basically this condition constantly leaves her severely dehydrated and nauseous. She vomits several times a day, is unable to hold anything down to keep her and the baby nurished. We almost lost our second child in utero due to complications from this, and the symptoms have gotten worse with each pregnancy. The last one was so bad that she was bedridden and confined with IV/PIC lines and in home nursing care. She developed life threatening blood clots which put her life and our baby’s life in serious danger. Her doctor told her that any subsequent surgeries from now on would be extremely risky for her. She’s delivered all of the babies by c-section. Natural childbirth has never been an option for her.
With our last baby, my wife’s water broke almost 3 months early. The doctors were able to keep the birth from happening, but my wife was in the hospital for another 6 weeks. The baby was born prematurely at 32 weeks and spent 2 weeks in the NICU with underdeveloped lungs and a very weak immune system. She’s better now (almost a year old), but still has her own health problems.
The bottom line with all this background is that there’s a good chance my wife and unborn baby could die if she gets pregnant again. NFP has not been an option because my wife has always had very irregular cycles. At this point she is not willing to try any form of hormone therapy or NFP method. She is terrified of becoming pregnant again.
Another side effect from her condition is that I lost my job to stay home and care for her. I lost my income and all medical benefits. I had to access my life/retirement savings to cover medical and living expenses. Our children (aged 3, 6, and 13 at the time) also basically lost their mother during all of this. It was very traumatic for everyone.
My wife is demanding that I get a vasectomy. I mentioned to her that maybe we’re called to be abstinent, but she will not live her life in a sexless marriage. She said that she will divorce me if I do not comply. I am horrified to even consider this, as I know it is a grave sin, but the alternative is to allow my home to be broken and to damage my children because of it. I coudln’t bear to hurt them. I also love my wife and want to stay married to her. I took a vow to her in front of God and I’ve always intended to follow through with it until death. I truly believe in the teachings of the Church and I feel tremendous anxiety and guilt because of this. I’ve consulted priests and even the National Catholic Bioethics Center. The Bioethics Center told me that there is never a reason to justify sterilization - even my reason. I was told to abstain.
I know the Church teaching - but I guess my question is this: “Will I be in everlasting mortal sin if I go through with this?” Is this even a mortal sin? Based on the guidelines for mortal sin, I have to consent and/or want to do it. I DO NOT want to do this but feel forced or my family will be destroyed. I also want to keep my wife safe. I could never bear to lose her.
I know this is a lot of info, but as you can see I am in great pain over this.
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Corki
Guest
To the bolded. He will be there every day with his kids until…… the next time she wants something that he is morally opposed to. Then she will pull out the “D” card again (since it worked so well the first time). He’'ll keep bending until he breaks.That paragraph is harsh. But it’s what you are facing. Your wife has put you in a true catch-22. If you give in, you stay married, and (most importantly) are there every day for the kids. But I sense there will be great resentment on your part and I think your relationship will never truly be the same. If you hold firm, your wife leaves you, and it’s extremely likely that another man is going to end up raising your kids.
What a tough call. You have my sympathy and prayers.
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sailor28
Guest
Daddyof 4,
You are dealing with an enormous amount of hardship. You have 4 kids including a 1 year old with healthy problems from prematurity. Your wife suffered from severe HG that has almost killed her and her unborn child. You have also lost your income and means to support your family. You are in the middle of a crisis and have a responsibility to preserve your marital bond.
If I were your wife I would also make it clear that I am not having another baby. I would not threaten divorce or demand that you get a vasectomy. But clearly this is of absolute vital importance to her. Marital sexual intimacy is an important part of marriage.
There is much healing that needs to take place for you and your wife. I praying for you as you travel down this road, may you be given abundant wisdom and grace. Praying also for your wife, oh my goodness, just sending tons of compassion her way. She has been through more trauma than one person should have to handle. May God bring her strength and healing.
You are dealing with an enormous amount of hardship. You have 4 kids including a 1 year old with healthy problems from prematurity. Your wife suffered from severe HG that has almost killed her and her unborn child. You have also lost your income and means to support your family. You are in the middle of a crisis and have a responsibility to preserve your marital bond.
If I were your wife I would also make it clear that I am not having another baby. I would not threaten divorce or demand that you get a vasectomy. But clearly this is of absolute vital importance to her. Marital sexual intimacy is an important part of marriage.
There is much healing that needs to take place for you and your wife. I praying for you as you travel down this road, may you be given abundant wisdom and grace. Praying also for your wife, oh my goodness, just sending tons of compassion her way. She has been through more trauma than one person should have to handle. May God bring her strength and healing.
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Blessedwithfive
Guest
I second that! I just wish there was more compassion from people here. Do what you need to do, ask forgiveness. God is merciful. I will pray for all.Daddyof 4,
You are dealing with an enormous amount of hardship. You have 4 kids including a 1 year old with healthy problems from prematurity. Your wife suffered from severe HG that has almost killed her and her unborn child. You have also lost your income and means to support your family. You are in the middle of a crisis and have a responsibility to preserve your marital bond.
If I were your wife I would also make it clear that I am not having another baby. I would not threaten divorce or demand that you get a vasectomy. But clearly this is of absolute vital importance to her. Marital sexual intimacy is an important part of marriage.
There is much healing that needs to take place for you and your wife. I praying for you as you travel down this road, may you be given abundant wisdom and grace. Praying also for your wife, oh my goodness, just sending tons of compassion her way. She has been through more trauma than one person should have to handle. May God bring her strength and healing.
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nodito
Guest
It’s perhaps a fault of mine that I don’t devote enough time to verbally acknowledging the inherent difficulties in a given situation and to offering words of comfort.I second that! I just wish there was more compassion from people here. Do what you need to do, ask forgiveness. God is merciful. I will pray for all.
But you are wrong, Blessedwithfive, to believe that it is compassionate to encourage this man to sin.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Wow. Just wow… Have you ever considered that by saying such things you could be held accountable yourself for the mutilation this man could do to his body and soul?I Do what you need to do, ask forgiveness. God is merciful. I will pray for all.
If I told someone to “Do what you have to do and ask for forgiveness” With other hard choices I would be culpable for what they do. Abortion, murder, rape, etc… No thanks!
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Corki
Guest
Threads like this really frustrate me.
Daddyof4, you have already consulted priests and the NCBC. They confirmed what you already know in your heart. To get a vasectomy is a grave sin. I don’t think you really expected a bunch of strangers on the internet to somehow point you toward a theological “loophole” that the experts missed. There isn’t one.
Sin is forgivable. But going into a sin like this with the intent to just seek forgiveness later is complicated. Not only does it add the sin of presumption, that forgiveness is only possible if, and when, you are contrite. So, you need to be also willing to live in sin and away from the Sacraments for a while in the hope of being able to honestly seek forgiveness at some point in the future.
No one here is unsympathetic to your situation. You have been dealt a rotten hand. The Catholic response is always going to be to look for grace to get you through rather than sin. That does’t mean that we don’t have compassion or don’t understand how hard it it.
As many have pointed out, the fact that your wife threatens divorce and refuses counseling points to deeper problems. You can seek counseling yourself even if she won’t participate. At the very least, such counseling might help you diffuse the talk of divorce.
I am sure there are dozens of people here on CAF who are praying for your family.
Daddyof4, you have already consulted priests and the NCBC. They confirmed what you already know in your heart. To get a vasectomy is a grave sin. I don’t think you really expected a bunch of strangers on the internet to somehow point you toward a theological “loophole” that the experts missed. There isn’t one.
Sin is forgivable. But going into a sin like this with the intent to just seek forgiveness later is complicated. Not only does it add the sin of presumption, that forgiveness is only possible if, and when, you are contrite. So, you need to be also willing to live in sin and away from the Sacraments for a while in the hope of being able to honestly seek forgiveness at some point in the future.
No one here is unsympathetic to your situation. You have been dealt a rotten hand. The Catholic response is always going to be to look for grace to get you through rather than sin. That does’t mean that we don’t have compassion or don’t understand how hard it it.
As many have pointed out, the fact that your wife threatens divorce and refuses counseling points to deeper problems. You can seek counseling yourself even if she won’t participate. At the very least, such counseling might help you diffuse the talk of divorce.
I am sure there are dozens of people here on CAF who are praying for your family.
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Daddyof4
Guest
Thank you Corki, and everyone who is praying for my family. I understand it is a grave sin. No way around that fact. I understand Catholic teaching very well on this. I guess I just can’t wrap my mind around the fact that I am destroying my bond with God completely by doing this. Believe it or not, I love God, and although I am FAR from perfect, I continually strive to live His will and be close to Him. I could not bear to be without Him, or the Sacraments. Given the circumstances, and I know the end is not supposed to justify the means, but if I commit this act, it would not be out of selfishness (unless you consider wanting to protect my family selfish). I would still love our Lord, and my wife and kids. How then could I really be dooming my soul to hell? I just can’t understand that. That’s where I’m at right now with this situation. My wife, unfortunately is standing firm and I do not believe she’ll change her mind. I continue to pray and offer solutions (therapy, NFP/Napro, abstinence, etc. etc) but I think it will come down to me, and the decision I end up making.
MonicaD, I do know that HG is treatable, but not every case is the same. Some cases are far more severe than others, and my wife’s seems to fall into this category. We’ve tried to be proactive with the last two pregnancies in order to minimize her suffering. We’ve researched, talked to many doctors, and even talked to others who have suffered through it, to no avail. Things actually got worse and more risky. I agree with your statemnent going with a provider that will look at us in the image of God. Hard to find someone with the right combination of morals and intimate knowledge of my wife’s problem.
MonicaD, I do know that HG is treatable, but not every case is the same. Some cases are far more severe than others, and my wife’s seems to fall into this category. We’ve tried to be proactive with the last two pregnancies in order to minimize her suffering. We’ve researched, talked to many doctors, and even talked to others who have suffered through it, to no avail. Things actually got worse and more risky. I agree with your statemnent going with a provider that will look at us in the image of God. Hard to find someone with the right combination of morals and intimate knowledge of my wife’s problem.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
You have professed your love for God. Can you think about what God asks us to do to show that love?Thank you Corki, and everyone who is praying for my family. I understand it is a grave sin. No way around that fact. I understand Catholic teaching very well on this. I guess I just can’t wrap my mind around the fact that I am destroying my bond with God completely by doing this. Believe it or not, I love God, and although I am FAR from perfect, I continually strive to live His will and be close to Him. I could not bear to be without Him, or the Sacraments. Given the circumstances, and I know the end is not supposed to justify the means, but if I commit this act, it would not be out of selfishness (unless you consider wanting to protect my family selfish). I would still love our Lord, and my wife and kids. How then could I really be dooming my soul to hell? I just can’t understand that. That’s where I’m at right now with this situation. My wife, unfortunately is standing firm and I do not believe she’ll change her mind. I continue to pray and offer solutions (therapy, NFP/Napro, abstinence, etc. etc) but I think it will come down to me, and the decision I end up making.
MonicaD, I do know that HG is treatable, but not every case is the same. Some cases are far more severe than others, and my wife’s seems to fall into this category. We’ve tried to be proactive with the last two pregnancies in order to minimize her suffering. We’ve researched, talked to many doctors, and even talked to others who have suffered through it, to no avail. Things actually got worse and more risky. I agree with your statemnent going with a provider that will look at us in the image of God. Hard to find someone with the right combination of morals and intimate knowledge of my wife’s problem.
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Daddyof4
Guest
Hoosier, yes, this is what I struggle with. What would God say to me if I stood before Him in the Flesh? How would He want me to show my love for Him? Would He want me to make the decision to preserve myself but destroy my family (symantics, but my family will break up with this decision), or would He expect me to protect the lives of my wife and children? What about when Abraham was all set to sacrifice Isaac and God intervened at the last minute? He didn’t expect Him to sacrifice his child in the end, but was looking for loyalty and obedience. Not sure if this is the right analogy here, but this is one of the things that come to my mind.
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mommamaree
Guest
Daddyof4,
Jesus said:
“If you love me, keep my commandments.”
That is how we discern how to show our love for God.
We may never do evil so that good may come of it. Sterilization surgery is intrinsically evil.
Your situation is a painful one. I will pray for perseverance and faith for you during your trial.
Our Father…
Hail Mary…
Glory be…
Jesus said:
“If you love me, keep my commandments.”
That is how we discern how to show our love for God.
We may never do evil so that good may come of it. Sterilization surgery is intrinsically evil.
Your situation is a painful one. I will pray for perseverance and faith for you during your trial.
Our Father…
Hail Mary…
Glory be…
S
sailor28
Guest
I too am surprised by the lack of ability for people to offer compassion and sympathy. Just go to the judging of his wife. My goodness, look at what she has been through. Acknowledge the gravity of the situation. CAF is full of laws but not full of the mercy. Regardless of what side of the decision you fall on this family needs compassion and empathy poured out. Just put yourself in this situation for a minute.I second that! I just wish there was more compassion from people here. Do what you need to do, ask forgiveness. God is merciful. I will pray for all.
I am sensing the OP (sorry if I am wrong OP) is having some cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile a teaching that really does not make sense in this situation. And that God would send him to hell for it. Back when the birth control commission met in the 60’s the majority of bishops and cardinals disagreed with the ban on birth control and definitely didn’t call it an intrinsic evil. I can’t think of any other sin labeled instrinsically evil that the cardinals and the bishops at the vatican would not agree on.
All in all some compassion and empathy would make everyone sound less like pharisees. It is almost as if people don’t hear the situation being presented. God bless your wife OP It will take years to heal from the type of trauma she has. God bless your kids who you said “lost their mom” for a time. May you be surrounded with goodness and kindness and a ton of wisdom.
I would consult other sources besides, CAF, the bioethics center and EWTN.
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