US Bishops' Conference Largely Disappointed by Debt Ceiling Agreement

[ComputerGeek25]

In my opinion, Republicans and Democrats alike are united in ignoring what it takes to help people with severe mental illness. Just look at anything psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey says on the subject. In the 80s hospital beds were closed in huge numbers in a process called deinstitutionalization. Community support was supposed to make the difference; it didn’t. The states never came up with the money.

There are basically two groups of people with severe mental illness; those with enough money to live in stable situations and pursue private treatment, which is far superior to public treatment, and those who don’t have that. The picture is much better if you have money. Compliance is better if you have money b/c your doctors will be better listeners, not as swamped, more respectful and etc. Your access to medication is better if you have money. Your life expectancy is better if you have money given that the atypical antipsychotics are associated with higher diabetes risk and it takes money and access to better foods and medical treatment to deal with that, or with diabetes if you have it.

It can be a catch-22 b/c people with severe mental illness often do better if they can work (paid or volunteer if paid is not possible) at least part-time but if they don’t have effective treatment they remain so ill this is not possible. On the one hand you don’t want to tell people their lives are over b/c they are ill and they can’t go to school or work or do anything to improve. On the other hand a lot of people end up in jail/prison for nonviolent crimes like disturbing the peace b/c they have no where else to go, shelters won’t take them for very long and the psychiatric hospitals for people who can’'t pay much are by and large closed except on very short-term emergency stabilization basis.

The alternative is privately funded treatment and based on personal experience it really upsets me how much worse the prognosis is when you don’t have access to that.

Yeah. I hear that. It is a catch-22. I have a friend that is bi-polar and has been in and out of hospitals for years. I think it would do him good if he got some sort of work, even if part time or temporary/seasonal, because he wouldn’t feel as depressed. But that would affect his government benefits too much (i.e. he wouldn’t be eligible). He needs the benefits for obvious reasons (he can’t hold down a long term stressful job and the medical coverage) but he doesn’t feel valued (which depressess him - is a trigger for his episodes).

 

[qui_est_ce]

Libs don’t seem to understand this.

I know several people who work in a school district in an urban setting. Many of them would like to quit.** Mainly because they have no parent or community buy in or accountibilty. Parents don’t see the value in education or discipline and pass this onto their kids - they know the government will always be there to feed and clothe them so they see no value in getting an education or a job.** No matter how much money they throw at the teachers, schools, etc. this problem won’t be fixed until you get full accountibility from parents.

Again, I agree it could be worse if we didn’t throw any money, but it sure could be a lot better.

You hit the nail on the head. Government doesn’t demand accountability. It really can’t. This is why Catholic schools are so much better.

We have several Catholic schools in St. Louis that use the “Nativity” model.

loyolaacademy.org/about-loyola-academy/background-history/

Highlights

Loyola Academy of Saint Louis is an all boy’s Catholic middle school in the Grand Center neighborhood. Founded in 1999 by the Jesuits, the school serves boys who have the potential for college preparatory work, but whose progress may be impeded by economic or social circumstances. Loyola Academy offers a rigorous curriculum including middle school operations, Encore (a mandatory after-school enrichment program), and graduate support program, which follows students through all four years of high school.

Founded: 1999
Member of Nativity Miguel Network of Schools
Enrollment 2010-2011: 63 students (from 24 zip codes)
Class Size: 15-20 students
Percentage of students in Federal Free/Reduced Program: Above 75%
Single Parent Households: 79%
Extended school day (7:30 a.m. until 5:40 p.m.)
Includes a six-week mandatory summer program

To date, Loyola has graduated 170 students (160 of these students are currently enrolled in or
have graduated from high school or GED program- 94% success rate)

Some of these schools make parent involvement mandatory and charge a small tuition, because this invests the parents in the education of their children.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

You hit the nail on the head. Government doesn’t demand accountability. It really can’t. This is why Catholic schools are so much better.

We have several Catholic schools in St. Louis that use the “Nativity” model.

loyolaacademy.org/about-loyola-academy/background-history/
Some of these schools make parent involvement mandatory and charge a small tuition, because this invests the parents in the education of their children.

Very interesting.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are not willing to listen to what I (or anyone else) is saying. Do you agree that there is a fair bit of waste and fraud (even you admitted this) in government programs? If so, isn’t fraud stealing and lying? And isn’t it because people want more things than they already have?

Do you not think that there is a ‘fair bit’ of waste and fraud in private programs?

No one has said that stealing and lying are not wrong. What has been said is that we have to be very careful not to affect those truly in need by across the board cuts based solely on numbers and money available. I also wonder how we can provide more ‘security’ against ‘fraud’ without growing the government to oversee a program to assure it’s going to the truly needy.

It’s not necessarily all people wanting more things than they already have. Some have only because of social programs. Now to decide what is really needed, we have to be careful not to take away what quality of life some may have because of social programs.

I was burnt out yesterday, as I just got off a 24 hour shift on an ambulance. It was a busy shift and the majority of calls we responded to, were for families whose need was truly evident by the conditions of the homes they were in. We had to be careful how we walked through some homes, as the floors sagged beneath our weight and at times felt as if it would give way under our steps. They were bare plywood floors, old and worn. We saw evidence of infestation of roaches. Some of these type homes had small children, because there were three generations of family living in the home. Yes, they had an ‘older’ color TV in the living room and appeared to have cable TV. It might have been the only entertainment the children had. There was very little lighting in the homes. Sometimes we have to utilize flashlights to check vitals and assess patients. In one instance a man had a syncopal episode (loss of consciousness). It may have been because he had not taken his blood pressure medicine. He was out because he couldn’t afford to refill the prescription. He also refused transport to the hospital, because he couldn’t afford the ambulance transport, or the hospital visit. I’m sure he had medicare, but didn’t choose to take advantage of that support. I don’t know why.

This is a rural area and there are not many jobs. People in the condition as described above become locked into where they live. They don’t have the money to relocate and there is not enough assistance to relocate them, train them for other things, etc. The only thing I know for certain is ‘they are poverty stricken’. Where a percentage of what I make would not be devastating to give up, it makes major differences for people who live in these type conditions.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Do you not think that there is a ‘fair bit’ of waste and fraud in private programs?

No one has said that stealing and lying are not wrong. What has been said is that we have to be very careful not to affect those truly in need by across the board cuts based solely on numbers and money available. I also wonder how we can provide more ‘security’ against ‘fraud’ without growing the government to oversee a program to assure it’s going to the truly needy.

It’s not necessarily all people wanting more things than they already have. Some have only because of social programs. Now to decide what is really needed, we have to be careful not to take away what quality of life some may have because of social programs.

I was burnt out yesterday, as I just got off a 24 hour shift on an ambulance. It was a busy shift and the majority of calls we responded to, were for families whose need was truly evident by the conditions of the homes they were in. We had to be careful how we walked through some homes, as the floors sagged beneath our weight and at times felt as if it would give way under our steps. They were bare plywood floors, old and worn. We saw evidence of infestation of roaches. Some of these type homes had small children, because there were three generations of family living in the home. Yes, they had an ‘older’ color TV in the living room and appeared to have cable TV. It might have been the only entertainment the children had. There was very little lighting in the homes. Sometimes we have to utilize flashlights to check vitals and assess patients. In one instance a man had a syncopal episode (loss of consciousness). It may have been because he had not taken his blood pressure medicine. He was out because he couldn’t afford to refill the prescription. He also refused transport to the hospital, because he couldn’t afford the ambulance transport, or the hospital visit. I’m sure he had medicare, but didn’t choose to take advantage of that support. I don’t know why.

This is a rural area and there are not many jobs. People in the condition as described above become locked into where they live. They don’t have the money to relocate and there is not enough assistance to relocate them, train them for other things, etc. The only thing I know for certain is ‘they are poverty stricken’. Where a percentage of what I make would not be devastating to give up, it makes major differences for people who live in these type conditions.

Here is the problem. Instead of a safety net, government programs have become the means. People lower their economic needs to fit into the government funded “pay.”

After several generations, you can see the result, a population dependent on the dole.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Here is the problem. Instead of a safety net, government programs have become the means. People lower their economic needs to fit into the government funded “pay.”

After several generations, you can see the result, a population dependent on the dole.

As I have repeatedly stated, the “safety net” has become a trampoline.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Do you not think that there is a ‘fair bit’ of waste and fraud in private programs?

No one has said that stealing and lying are not wrong. What has been said is that we have to be very careful not to affect those truly in need by across the board cuts based solely on numbers and money available. I also wonder how we can provide more ‘security’ against ‘fraud’ without growing the government to oversee a program to assure it’s going to the truly needy.

It’s not necessarily all people wanting more things than they already have. Some have only because of social programs. Now to decide what is really needed, we have to be careful not to take away what quality of life some may have because of social programs.

I was burnt out yesterday, as I just got off a 24 hour shift on an ambulance. It was a busy shift and the majority of calls we responded to, were for families whose need was truly evident by the conditions of the homes they were in. We had to be careful how we walked through some homes, as the floors sagged beneath our weight and at times felt as if it would give way under our steps. They were bare plywood floors, old and worn. We saw evidence of infestation of roaches. Some of these type homes had small children, because there were three generations of family living in the home. Yes, they had an ‘older’ color TV in the living room and appeared to have cable TV. It might have been the only entertainment the children had. There was very little lighting in the homes. Sometimes we have to utilize flashlights to check vitals and assess patients. In one instance a man had a syncopal episode (loss of consciousness). It may have been because he had not taken his blood pressure medicine. He was out because he couldn’t afford to refill the prescription. He also refused transport to the hospital, because he couldn’t afford the ambulance transport, or the hospital visit. I’m sure he had medicare, but didn’t choose to take advantage of that support. I don’t know why.

This is a rural area and there are not many jobs. People in the condition as described above become locked into where they live. They don’t have the money to relocate and there is not enough assistance to relocate them, train them for other things, etc. The only thing I know for certain is ‘they are poverty stricken’. Where a percentage of what I make would not be devastating to give up, it makes major differences for people who live in these type conditions.

I am very sympathetic to the conditions you are seeing.

Yes, I am aware that what people propose is not an easy question to answer. But it is one that has to be addressed. We cannot have people dying the streets. Simply allowing people to remain on “the dole,” with no plan/accountibility to get off it is not charity either.

Simply throwing money at the problems in society isn’t sustainable, as we’re beginning to see in Europe and the US. We will collapse under our own weight.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Do you not think that there is a ‘fair bit’ of waste and fraud in private programs?

Not nearly as rampant as with the federal government programs and the bigger charities (United Way).

No one has said that stealing and lying are not wrong. What has been said is that we have to be very careful not to affect those truly in need by across the board cuts based solely on numbers and money available. I also wonder how we can provide more ‘security’ against ‘fraud’ without growing the government to oversee a program to assure it’s going to the truly needy.

Using an entity fraught with fraud to oversee fraud control??

It’s not necessarily all people wanting more things than they already have. Some have only because of social programs. Now to decide what is really needed, we have to be careful not to take away what quality of life some may have because of social programs.

What you describe below is not a quality life

I was burnt out yesterday, as I just got off a 24 hour shift on an ambulance. It was a busy shift and the majority of calls we responded to, were for families whose need was truly evident by the conditions of the homes they were in. We had to be careful how we walked through some homes, as the floors sagged beneath our weight and at times felt as if it would give way under our steps. They were bare plywood floors, old and worn. We saw evidence of infestation of roaches. Some of these type homes had small children, because there were three generations of family living in the home. Yes, they had an ‘older’ color TV in the living room and appeared to have cable TV. It might have been the only entertainment the children had.

There is no excuse to use television as entertainment for children. NONE.

There was very little lighting in the homes. Sometimes we have to utilize flashlights to check vitals and assess patients. In one instance a man had a syncopal episode (loss of consciousness). It may have been because he had not taken his blood pressure medicine. He was out because he couldn’t afford to refill the prescription.

Medicare and Medicaid pay for prescriptions for the poor and the elderly.

He also refused transport to the hospital, because he couldn’t afford the ambulance transport, or the hospital visit. I’m sure he had medicare, but didn’t choose to take advantage of that support. I don’t know why.

This is a rural area and there are not many jobs. People in the condition as described above become locked into where they live. They don’t have the money to relocate and there is not enough assistance to relocate them, train them for other things, etc. The only thing I know for certain is ‘they are poverty stricken’. Where a percentage of what I make would not be devastating to give up, it makes major differences for people who live in these type conditions.

There are so many things wrong with this story. It just highlights the failures of the present system of entitlements.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Here is the problem. Instead of a safety net, government programs have become the means. People lower their economic needs to fit into the government funded “pay.”

After several generations, you can see the result, a population dependent on the dole.

I explained that these people live in a rural area where jobs are few. These people have not chosen to lower their economic needs to fit into a government funded pay. The grandfather, I specified his condition, was a commercial fisherman. Due to health reasons he’s lost one of his legs. He can no longer work the boats in this area. The ‘son-in-law’, assuming he was actually married, cannot make the money necessary to support grandfather and his own family through fishing. He is not trained for other things and cannot move the entire family to an area with menial jobs available.

I realize there are some on the programs that use the aid as a means, but it’s not everyone and that’s the reason I don’t think we can do across the board cuts and endanger those truly in need. The other problem is having the people to ‘police’ the systems. Now we’ve grown government more.

I know there are individual stories of extremes in any direction. Again, we cannot let those in true need fall between the cracks of an across the board solution.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I explained that these people live in a rural area where jobs are few. These people have not chosen to lower their economic needs to fit into a government funded pay. The grandfather, I specified his condition, was a commercial fisherman. Due to health reasons he’s lost one of his legs. He can no longer work the boats in this area. The ‘son-in-law’, assuming he was actually married, cannot make the money necessary to support grandfather and his own family through fishing. He is not trained for other things and cannot move the entire family to an area with menial jobs available.

I realize there are some on the programs that use the aid as a means, but it’s not everyone and that’s the reason I don’t think we can do across the board cuts and endanger those truly in need. The other problem is having the people to ‘police’ the systems. Now we’ve grown government more.

I know there are individual stories of extremes in any direction. Again, we cannot let those in true need fall between the cracks of an across the board solution.

I agree.

Having said that, I don’t see how FEDERAL government helps these people out of there misery in anyway. Many of their problems can be solved with a visit by the local St. Vincent de Paul Society.

We just had a fundraiser BBQ at our parish to help a family with their medical bills. We routinely help people with their electricity bill. We do not help with phone bills, though.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I explained that these people live in a rural area where jobs are few. These people have not chosen to lower their economic needs to fit into a government funded pay. The grandfather, I specified his condition, was a commercial fisherman. Due to health reasons he’s lost one of his legs. He can no longer work the boats in this area. The ‘son-in-law’, assuming he was actually married, cannot make the money necessary to support grandfather and his own family through fishing. He is not trained for other things and cannot move the entire family to an area with menial jobs available.

I realize there are some on the programs that use the aid as a means, but it’s not everyone and that’s the reason I don’t think we can do across the board cuts and endanger those truly in need. The other problem is having the people to ‘police’ the systems. Now we’ve grown government more.

I know there are individual stories of extremes in any direction. Again, we cannot let those in true need fall between the cracks of an across the board solution.

I agree, it is a bad situaton.

However, what exactly are they doing to make the problem better? Can’t the grandfather take on a menial job as a cashier? Why can’t the younger generations go to school and learn a trade? There are loans and grants you know…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What you describe below is not a quality life There is no excuse to use television as entertainment for children. NONE. Medicare and Medicaid pay for prescriptions for the poor and the elderly.
There are so many things wrong with this story. It just highlights the failures of the present system of entitlements.

While I would agree with you ,for you and I, that is not a quality of life. For the family themselves in that condition, it maybe all the quality of life they can have out of our social programs.

Whether or not cable TV is a ‘luxury’ is a topic within itself. It is some people’s only connection with the world. Weather channel has become a necessity to some (this is a coastal area of Florida and severe thunderstorms and hurricanes are not uncommon). It can be an educational tool for small ones with nothing else to do. This is not saying that TV, like many other things, can be misused. Again, what we view through our eyes as not being a necessity, could be viewed differently through the eyes of others.

Yes, medicare pays. Why this man didn’t utilize that, I cannot say. Was it misplaced pride? I just don’t know. I know that these type situations exist.

Yes the system fails, but the system is the only place some in this area can turn too. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a ‘closed’ sign on our parish office stating ‘no funds available’.

Reforming a system doesn’t necessarily mean cutting it.

I have worked a majority of my life in sales. The money was good, but it was not rewarding. It was through a spiritual renewal I investigated a change of careers. Being an EMT is rewarding, but I make a lot less money. I am in paramedic school now, at age 56, to give more advantage to what I can actually do for the people of this community. This line of work has put me into many such situations as I describe. Maybe it comes through first hand experience, but my heart goes out to a lot of people and I try not to judge their situations. I see some with apparent abuses, but feel like they know not what they do, for whatever reason. I just know that it’s not my place to judge them. I just try to be the uplifting force when I can. I pray often that I can see Christ in everyone, and that the compassion of Christ can work through me.

I’m just trying to get people to understand why I have the views I do on political issues. I admit, I don’t know many answers, much less all of them. I can only work through my heart, and try to do that through it being spiritual.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I agree, it is a bad situaton.

However, what exactly are they doing to make the problem better? Can’t the grandfather take on a menial job as a cashier? Why can’t the younger generations go to school and learn a trade? There are loans and grants you know…

This gist I get is the American spirit has been killed. What about the pioneers who set out in wagons to find farming land? What about immigrants who came to this country less than a century ago with just the cloths on their backs?
Below is a picture of a statue of Italian immigrants to St. Louis. Look at the Suitcase.

St. Ambrose Catholic Church has been a vital component of the Hill neighborhood since its** dedication in 1926**. Few other St. Louis communities retain such a strong connection to one house of worship. For many resident families, St. Ambrose is the focal point of daily life on the Hill.

In front of the church is a statue called simply “The Italian Immigrants.” The statue memorializes the Italian families that arrived in St. Louis looking for a better life.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I agree, it is a bad situaton.

However, what exactly are they doing to make the problem better? Can’t the grandfather take on a menial job as a cashier? Why can’t the younger generations go to school and learn a trade? There are loans and grants you know…

Maybe the grandfather could work as a cashier. Younger people can learn a new trade (I’ve done it in my 50s). The problem still lays with the availability of those type jobs in a rural area. One also has to realize how much it would cost to relocate an entire family, then there’s the job skills problem upon relocating.

We have a new ‘tea party’ governor in this state. He is cutting many funds, through a lot of different departments. Education has taken a big hit. I have a friend that works through federal funds, but his job is in jeopardy because of the governor. He had to explain that to me. The federal government gives the money to the state for his position, but the governor gets bragging rites to how much money he saved through cuts, without actually having to make all cuts through state services. It’s politics, pure and simple.

Not everyone has the capabilities, or knowledge, how to take advantage of grants and loans, that you or me might utilize.

 

[qui_est_ce]

While I would agree with you ,for you and I, that is not a quality of life. For the family themselves in that condition, it maybe all the quality of life they can have out of our social programs.

Whether or not cable TV is a ‘luxury’ is a topic within itself.

I didn’t say it was a luxury, I said it is not an acceptable form of entertainment for children.

Yes the system fails, but the system is the only place some in this area can turn too. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a ‘closed’ sign on our parish office stating ‘no funds available’.

ditto for the federal government

I have worked a majority of my life in sales. The money was good, but it was not rewarding. It was through a spiritual renewal I investigated a change of careers. Being an EMT is rewarding, but I make a lot less money. I am in paramedic school now, at age 56, to give more advantage to what I can actually do for the people of this community. This line of work has put me into many such situations as I describe. Maybe it comes through first hand experience, but my heart goes out to a lot of people and I try not to judge their situations. I see some with apparent abuses, but feel like they know not what they do, for whatever reason. I just know that it’s not my place to judge them. I just try to be the uplifting force when I can. I pray often that I can see Christ in everyone, and that the compassion of Christ can work through me.

I’m just trying to get people to understand why I have the views I do on political issues. I admit, I don’t know many answers, much less all of them. I can only work through my heart, and try to do that through it being spiritual.

I have gone through the same experience. I am an accountant. I was making good money working for a big corporation but found no joy in it. I’m still an accountant but work for janitorial firm that hires people who are otherwise unemployable. I love my job, but the pay and benefits are minimal compared to my “corporate” job.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Maybe the grandfather could work as a cashier. Younger people can learn a new trade (I’ve done it in my 50s). The problem still lays with the availability of those type jobs in a rural area. One also has to realize how much it would cost to relocate an entire family, then there’s the job skills problem upon relocating.

These seem like excuses, not solutions to the bigger problem. The family may have to bite the bullet temporarily in order to get ahead in the long run.

We have a new ‘tea party’ governor in this state. He is cutting many funds, through a lot of different departments. Education has taken a big hit. I have a friend that works through federal funds, but his job is in jeopardy because of the governor. He had to explain that to me. The federal government gives the money to the state for his position, but the governor gets bragging rites to how much money he saved through cuts, without actually having to make all cuts through state services. It’s politics, pure and simple.

Not everyone has the capabilities, or knowledge, how to take advantage of grants and loans, that you or me might utilize.

And the issues with this is, what exactly? We have had generations of people abusing the system and/or making excuses, and now tough decisions have to be made. The free ride is over.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

This gist I get is the American spirit has been killed. What about the pioneers who set out in wagons to find farming land? What about immigrants who came to this country less than a century ago with just the cloths on their backs?
Below is a picture of a statue of Italian immigrants to St. Louis. Look at the Suitcase.

Thank you for this tidbit.

It seems to me that people are unwilling to sacrafice these days and are all too happy to take the government hand out.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

These seem like excuses, not solutions to the bigger problem. The family may have to bite the bullet temporarily in order to get ahead in the long run.

What can so easily be viewed as ‘excuses’ are realities for others. Living day to day, with a limited budget that is exhausted through the expense of necessities, leaves no bullet to be bitten. They have no ‘bootstraps’ to pull themselves up by.

And the issues with this is, what exactly? We have had generations of people abusing the system and/or making excuses, and now tough decisions have to be made. The free ride is over.

So the free ride is over. We let families such as I’ve tried to describe go entirely without? Is that the ‘tough decision’ we need to make? Where was such a qualification made by Christ? Are we seeing Christ through people we leave to their own, even if they have not?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

What can so easily be viewed as ‘excuses’ are realities for others. Living day to day, with a limited budget that is exhausted through the expense of necessities, leaves no bullet to be bitten. They have no ‘bootstraps’ to pull themselves up by.

So the free ride is over. We let families such as I’ve tried to describe go entirely without? Is that the ‘tough decision’ we need to make? Where was such a qualification made by Christ? Are we seeing Christ through people we leave to their own, even if they have not?

I don’t think Christ would approve of people abusing charity either. To much is given, much is expected and all that.

 

[qui_est_ce]

What can so easily be viewed as ‘excuses’ are realities for others. Living day to day, with a limited budget that is exhausted through the expense of necessities, leaves no bullet to be bitten. They have no ‘bootstraps’ to pull themselves up by.

You put it all in a nutshell. Federal Programs have done nothing to help families better themselves.

So the free ride is over. We let families such as I’ve tried to describe go entirely without? Is that the ‘tough decision’ we need to make? Where was such a qualification made by Christ? Are we seeing Christ through people we leave to their own, even if they have not?

The ride was never free.

We are not saying to do without, we are suggesting alternative means of helping people.