US Bishops' Conference Largely Disappointed by Debt Ceiling Agreement

[rlg94086]

And unless I missed someone’s post, no one here that I know of has ever said we do any such thing by just paying taxes and hoping government programs help.

Maybe that’s because they are part of the 46% that pay no federal income tax.

 

[CMatt25]

Agree - and unregulated capitalism, fed by the greed of human nature, is also at odds with Christian teaching, IMHO, and has led to the growing imbalance… this is where government policy can make a difference - and I believe this is were we are called to speak out in favor of policy that upholds the lives of everyone - not just the CEO’s and stock holders. However those ‘with’ seem to have much more influence with those who make policy - so I think this is why it actually matters that the Church tries to be in the dialogue, being the voice for the increasingly voiceless.

:clapping:

 

[rlg94086]

Agree - and unregulated capitalism, fed by the greed of human nature, is also at odds with Christian teaching, IMHO, and has led to the growing imbalance… this is where government policy can make a difference - and I believe this is were we are called to speak out in favor of policy that upholds the lives of everyone - not just the CEO’s and stock holders. However those ‘with’ seem to have much more influence with those who make policy - so I think this is why it actually matters that the Church tries to be in the dialogue, being the voice for the increasingly voiceless.

The Church is certainly against unfettered, or laissez-faire, Capitalism. We don’t have anything near that in the US, so you have stuffed that straw man as full as you possibly can.

The Church actually teaches some great guiding principles regarding the role of the State - they are gathered together in the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church. You should try giving it a read with an open mind. The balancing of subsidiarity and solidarity are very important to the Church. Amazingly, the US Constitution, with its emphasis on the proper roles of the federal versus state governments is a great vehicle to achieve those principles. Sadly, neither the Republican Party extreme (all subsidiarity no solidarity) nor the Democratic Party extreme (all solidarity no subsidiarity) get it right.

The status quo is definitely out-of-balance by focussing on the use of federal bureaucracy to handle social ills. That is not the preferred way, regardless of what the USCCB letter is urging. Long-standing Church teaching trumps anything the USCCB, which lacks authority, has to say about the issue.

 

[seekerz]

The Church is certainly against unfettered, or laissez-faire, Capitalism. We don’t have anything near that in the US, so you have stuffed that straw man as full as you possibly can.

The Church actually teaches some great guiding principles regarding the role of the State - they are gathered together in the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church. You should try giving it a read with an open mind. The balancing of subsidiarity and solidarity are very important to the Church. Amazingly, the US Constitution, with its emphasis on the proper roles of the federal versus state governments is a great vehicle to achieve those principles. Sadly, neither the Republican Party extreme (all subsidiarity no solidarity) nor the Democratic Party extreme (all solidarity no subsidiarity) get it right.

The status quo is definitely out-of-balance by focussing on the use of federal bureaucracy to handle social ills. That is not the preferred way, regardless of what the USCCB letter is urging. Long-standing Church teaching trumps anything the USCCB, which lacks authority, has to say about the issue.

You don’t think we have unfettered capitalism in the U.S.? How familiar are you with the health care system, its funding, the deliberate lack of transparency in pricing of products/services and the magnitude of its contribution to personal bankruptcies?

 

[Linda_Marie]

Agree - and unregulated capitalism, fed by the greed of human nature, is also at odds with Christian teaching, IMHO, and has led to the growing imbalance… this is where government policy can make a difference - and I believe this is were we are called to speak out in favor of policy that upholds the lives of everyone - not just the CEO’s and stock holders. However those ‘with’ seem to have much more influence with those who make policy - so I think this is why it actually matters that the Church tries to be in the dialogue, being the voice for the increasingly voiceless.

Envy, as well as Greed, is one of the 7 Capital Sins.

It would be nice if the Church could be part of the dialogue, but the USCCB is not the Church and many of the proclamations coming from that organisation are hardly orthodox.

Besides which, the poor and needy are not voiceless. It seems I hear about nothing but. At this rate, I expect most of America is on the bread lines, wearing rags and sleeping under freeway overpasses.

Where do we have unregulated capitalism? Certainly not in the United States. Please, give me an example of an unregulated business in America when even kids selling lemonade are hauled up for not have their permits and not meeting regulations?

Who actually are the stockholders? It is you and I and all the people who have a retirement plan that invests in the stock market. It is not only the big CEO’s, but also the little people, who are desperately trying to have enough to see them through their old age.

Here, they call it superannuation. We have a law that requires all employers to pay 9% on top of an employee’s base salary into the complying superannuation fund of his/her choice - ALL employees, casual included. These superannuation funds invest heavily in the stock market. The last couple days has seen the entire year’s worth of both contributions and earnings wiped out. This is the money being saved up for old age by EVERY worker in Australia, not just the big fellas and it has just been poured down the drain.

We, the little people of Australia, have been hit very hard by this and I can tell you, we are not appreciative.

 

[Warrior1979]

The status quo is definitely out-of-balance by focussing on the use of federal bureaucracy to handle social ills. That is not the preferred way, regardless of what the USCCB letter is urging. Long-standing Church teaching trumps anything the USCCB, which lacks authority, has to say about the issue.

There were some interesting points that I can across when I was reading random biographies of early American public figures (Founding Fathers, Presidents, etc.)

• It is not the function of Federal government to help to the poor.
• These early American figures helped people through their Churches…in fact, it was a just a fact of life that they donate through the Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There were some interesting points that I can across when I was reading random biographies of early American public figures (Founding Fathers, Presidents, etc.)

• It is not the function of Federal government to help to the poor.
• These early American figures helped people through their Churches…in fact, it was a just a fact of life that they donate through the Church.

Christians first, countrymen second.

Reading scriptures we see we are called to help the poor. The Pope and Vatican secretary of state has called on governments to prioritize healthcare and a quality of life for all. The very article of this thread shows concern for the poor from the bishops conference. The fact is, the Church(s) are overwhelmed and governments have the most reach among it’s people.

Many Americans say our country is blessed by God. Then our country should be doing everything in it’s power to fulfill the commands of God.

 

[estesbob]

You don’t think we have unfettered capitalism in the U.S.? How familiar are you with the health care system, its funding, the deliberate lack of transparency in pricing of products/services and the magnitude of its contribution to personal bankruptcies?

. You mean the healthcare system where the government has just mandated that I have to pay for contraception and morning-after pills for my employees? And you call that unfettered capitalism?

 

[estesbob]

Christians first, countrymen second.

Reading scriptures we see we are called to help the poor. The Pope and Vatican secretary of state has called on governments to prioritize healthcare and a quality of life for all. The very article of this thread shows concern for the poor from the bishops conference. The fact is, the Church(s) are overwhelmed and governments have the most reach among it’s people.

Many Americans say our country is blessed by God. Then our country should be doing everything in it’s power to fulfill the commands of God.

. There is absolutely no dispute there were called upon the help the poor. Acknowledging that does not, however, mean we have to support the big government solutions offered by the modern American left- solutions that have led to a permanent underclass and total destruction of the black American family.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Do you really expect people to tak e you seriously?

Wow! And right after you posted this about my reply to another…

“He has shown that he does NOT have a comprehension problem. Is it necessary to reply in such a rude manner? i don’t want to put words in another posters mouth but I think he is saying that not all people in America believe life begins at birth. We do believe that. We live in country that is very diversified. Being rude to people who put forth another opinion doesn’
t help in persuading others that your opinion is the correct one. IMHO.”

 

[rlg94086]

You don’t think we have unfettered capitalism in the U.S.? How familiar are you with the health care system, its funding, the deliberate lack of transparency in pricing of products/services and the magnitude of its contribution to personal bankruptcies?

Are you familiar with the regulation and federal bureaucracy involved in our healthcare? It is hardly unfettered capitalism.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

. There is absolutely no dispute there were called upon the help the poor. Acknowledging that does not, however, mean we have to support the big government solutions offered by the modern American left- solutions that have led to a permanent underclass and total destruction of the black American family.

Too many generalizations in this discussion. ‘…that have led to a permanent underclass and total destruction of the black American Family?’

Part of what we support, through our government, is the poor people.

 

[rlg94086]

Too many generalizations in this discussion. ‘…that have led to a permanent underclass and total destruction of the black American Family?’

Part of what we support, through our government, is the poor people.

Like this generalization?

. The fact is, the Church(s) are overwhelmed and governments have the most reach among it’s people.
.

So, your logic is: there is not charity from the people, so we should take money from those same people and call it charity.

 

[estesbob]

Too many generalizations in this discussion. ‘…that have led to a permanent underclass and total destruction of the black American Family?’

Part of what we support, through our government, is the poor people.

Yes part of what we support thorugh our government is poor people. . However, the Catholic Church does not have any teaching whatsoever concerning what the proper level of government funding for the poor nor what the proper of level of taxation to fund the government is. Acknowledging the fact the Govt has a place in caring for the poor does not mean that a Catholic has to support every high cost ineffective program for the poor, the government proposes. The fact that the government provides assistance for the poor does not in anyway relieve our responsibility to personally care for the poor, no matter how many left wing politicians and bloated top-heavy war on poverty programs we loudly support.

As far as my comments about the destruction of the black family, perhaps you should go back and look at the African-American illegitimacy rate and the number of two-parent African-Americanfamilies in 1965, when the Great Society was launched, as compared to today

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Like this generalization?

That generalization was in quotation marks and said in the post I quoted.
rlg94086;8223532:

So, your logic is: there is not charity from the people, so we should take money from those same people and call it charity.

No, there is charity from the people; however private resources are overwhelmed and to cut government social programs would only exacerbate the problem, placing more people in not having any assistance.

 

[rlg94086]

That generalization was in quotation marks and said in the post I quoted.

Right. I was referring to the generalization, which you have repeated again below.

No, there is charity from the people; however private resources are overwhelmed and to cut government social programs would only exacerbate the problem, placing more people in not having any assistance.

Obviously, you believe you are the only one who is allowed to make generalizations.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes part of what we support thorugh our government is poor people. . However, the Catholic Church does not have any teaching whatsoever concerning what the proper level of government funding for the poor nor what the proper of level of taxation to fund the government is. Acknowledging the fact the Govt has a place in caring for the poor does not mean that a Catholic has to support every high cost ineffective program for the poor, the government proposes. The fact that the government provides assistance for the poor does not in anyway relieve our responsibility to personally care for the poor, no matter how many left wing politicians and bloated top-heavy war on poverty programs we loudly support.

As far as my comments about the destruction of the black family, perhaps you should go back and look at the African-American illegitimacy rate and the number of two-parent African-Americanfamilies in 1965, when the Great Society was launched, as compared to today

So, in the face of a lack of formal teaching, we should just forget the avenue of government, even though the Pope, Vatican secretary of state, and other clergy have called on governments?

You love throwing left wing into a discussion. It seems the problem has existed through both ‘wings’ of the political spectrum. Non-Christians being forced to give, big government, and other similar arguments seem to be a rationalization of ways to reject the reality of having to share through taxes to our government. There are many programs our government could consider cutting back on, social programs should not be one in my opinion. Those programs give us another opportunity to give unto Caesar, that which is Caesar’s and reach the poor.

Have not all races experienced the same issues you refer too?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Right. I was referring to the generalization, which you have repeated again below.

Obviously, you believe you are the only one who is allowed to make generalizations.

I don’t see how it’s a generalization. I see actions of the men of the Church and feel their requests to nations is a request to governments for assistance in the problems being discussed.

I also see the accusatory tone/spin in your statement. To direct such a tone to someone whose view you oppose, does not add validity to your view. That’s just my opinion on the subject.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes part of what we support thorugh our government is poor people. . However, the Catholic Church does not have any teaching whatsoever concerning what the proper level of government funding for the poor nor what the proper of level of taxation to fund the government is. Acknowledging the fact the Govt has a place in caring for the poor does not mean that a Catholic has to support every high cost ineffective program for the poor, the government proposes. The fact that the government provides assistance for the poor does not in anyway relieve our responsibility to personally care for the poor, no matter how many left wing politicians and bloated top-heavy war on poverty programs we loudly support.

As far as my comments about the destruction of the black family, perhaps you should go back and look at the African-American illegitimacy rate and the number of two-parent African-Americanfamilies in 1965, when the Great Society was launched, as compared to today

I realize I’m being repetitive and many Catholics will just ignore it, but…

. 354. The State can encourage citizens and businesses to promote the common good by enacting an economic policy that fosters the participation of all citizens in the activities of production. Respect of the principle of subsidiarity must prompt public authorities to seek conditions that encourage the development of individual capacities of initiative, autonomy and personal responsibility in citizens, avoiding any interference which would unduly condition business forces.

With a view to the common good, it is necessary to pursue always and with untiring determination the goal of a proper equilibrium between private freedom and public action, understood both as direct intervention in economic matters and as activity supportive of economic development. In any case, public intervention must be carried out with equity, rationality and effectiveness, and without replacing the action of individuals, which would be contrary to their right to the free exercise of economic initiative. In such cases, the State becomes detrimental to society: a direct intervention that is too extensive ends up depriving citizens of responsibility and creates excessive growth in public agencies guided more by bureaucratic logic than by the goal of satisfying the needs of the person.[738]

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I realize I’m being repetitive and many Catholics will just ignore it, but…

Has the Pope, Vatican secretary of state, and other clergy from the Church ignored the quotes you’re using? They have called on nations, and some have specifically addressed ‘governments’?