US Bishops' Conference Largely Disappointed by Debt Ceiling Agreement

[iamrefreshed]

Perhaps you can show where Christ sad that our obligation to help the hungry, naked and homeless is fulfilled if the government does it

We know He didn’t but some would rather toss 100% of the obligation on the government so they don’t have to get their hands dirty.

 

[seekerz]

So, when the government stop throwing money people riot.

Thanks for proving my point.

Quite the contrary: you now seem to think that government ‘throwing money’ keeps problems in check…quite different from your original comments.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Not at all. You still don’t get it. I’m not at all envious of the rich. I’m quite thankful for my very modest 6+ yr old compact car and my 30 yr old 1000 sq ft home. I’m just blessed right now to have a roof over my head when so many have not. And besides I don’t need to then worry about whether a camel can fit thru an eye of a needle.

Oh, I get it. You want others to give for you.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

The part I was referring to in his post was in regard to his words about the promotion of a conservative political agenda on CAF or at least on this sub forum of it.

And the problem with a Conservative viewpoint is… what exactly? We differ opinion on whether the government is in the business of charity?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

The part I was referring to in his post was in regard to his words about the promotion of a conservative political agenda on CAF or at least on this sub forum of it.

And the problem with a Conservative viewpoint is… what exactly? We differ opinion on whether the government is in the business of charity? And that’s a problem how?

 

[rlg94086]

Please show us, under the new and everlasting covenant, where Christ qualifies His commands to help the hungry, naked, homeless, and sick, in a fashion that supports your position. He never taught everyone for themselves, which is what some of the arguments amount too when we see ‘everyone can work, but doesn’t want to’.

Christ has no qualifiers either way regarding government intervention, so you can neither defend your position nor attack others based on what He said. However, His Church, through the Magisterium, does provide qualifiers, and I have cited them. Unless you are a Protestant, you can’t hide behind a “where did Christ qualify…” argument.

Further, the argument I and others on CAF espouse do not "amount to “everyone for themselves” - not even close. And, no one said “everyone can work, but doesn’t want to,” so that is just more of your dishonest argumentation.

You blew off the different articles and writings referencing all sectors of society, and specifically governments being called by the Pope, and other clergy. The teachings, through those writings and quotes, are not that difficult to understand. It doesn’t take a great deal of effort to understand the message, unless you attempt to view it through a biased political view.

Not at all. What I said, is that they aren’t contrary to anything I’ve posted. I agree that all sectors, including (did the pope say or imply “specifically”…I think not) the State have a role in social justice. I’ve never said anything contrary. However, I didn’t see anything in your articles that showed a preference for government over other sectors or a preference for a federal bureaucracy versus state/local or private charity. Perhaps it seemed simple to you because you took a simplistic view “through a biased political view.”

Either way, I have tried to stay on topic, which is very hard to do when the spins and attacks come back at me personally and are not specifically addressing the topic of discussion. But we are to be accused of having no position? I think our posts speak for themselves.

…and we are back to the victimhood stance. Bravo! You have repeated every one of your poor arguments in a single thread. Yes, your posts speak for themselves. :clapping:

 

[estesbob]

Not at all. You still don’t get it. I’m not at all envious of the rich. I’m quite thankful for my very modest 6+ yr old compact car and my 30 yr old 1000 sq ft home. I’m just blessed right now to have a roof over my head when so many have not. And besides I don’t need to then worry about whether a camel can fit thru an eye of a needle.

If you believe taxes should be higher, you’re more than welcome to send in a check.
You can send it to"

Department of the Treasury
Internal Revenue Service
Austin, TX 73301-0115

You need to write in the memo section of the check “voluntary tax contribution”

For the payee you should write out the words" Internal Revenue Service " Using initials IRS makes a check too easy to forge. i.e. someone could intercpet it and change the initials "IRS " to Mrs. and their last name,

 

[estesbob]

Oh, I get it. You want others to give for you.

. The “progressive” definition of shared sacrifice is we share, you sacrifice,

 

[iamrefreshed]

Perhaps you can show where Christ sad that our obligation to help the hungry, naked and homeless is fulfilled if the government does it

Maybe it was when He said the woman with the copper coin gave more than the Pharisee. Then He went to the Pharisee and took the rest of his money to give to the poor?

Wait, is that how it went?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Please show us, under the new and everlasting covenant, where Christ qualifies His commands to help the hungry, naked, homeless, and sick, in a fashion that supports your position. He never taught everyone for themselves, which is what some of the arguments amount too when we see ‘everyone can work, but doesn’t want to’.

You blew off the different articles and writings referencing all sectors of society, and specifically governments being called by the Pope, and other clergy. The teachings, through those writings and quotes, are not that difficult to understand. It doesn’t take a great deal of effort to understand the message, unless you attempt to view it through a biased political view.

Either way, I have tried to stay on topic, which is very hard to do when the spins and attacks come back at me personally and are not specifically addressing the topic of discussion. But we are to be accused of having no position? I think our posts speak for themselves.

The quick little cliches, filled with spins of what’s being said and direct attacks on a person and their beliefs, fails to show a position.

I think you are missing the point. Christ did say all those things but you ignore the bit about not sinning. We cannot condone sin even if it achieves a greater good. This is not political spin.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Further, the argument I and others on CAF espouse do not "amount to “everyone for themselves” - not even close. And, no one said “everyone can work, but doesn’t want to,” so that is just more of your dishonest argumentation.

I dislike the misrepresentation of what I say. I definitely put qualifiers in my responses. Gotta love the selective reading

 

[CMatt25]

And the problem with a Conservative viewpoint is… what exactly? We differ opinion on whether the government is in the business of charity? And that’s a problem how?

Look at the attacks your bishops’ conference statement and Prodigal Son have received for their views. Or others on other threads. So for one problem, lurkers and posters who perhaps don’t realize yet that CAF is not owned by or affiliated with the Church but instead is a private internet forum and business, might be given the perception this extreme conservative political viewpoint are Catholic answers.

 

[seekerz]

Maybe it was when He said the woman with the copper coin gave more than the Pharisee. Then He went to the Pharisee and took the rest of his money to give to the poor?

Wait, is that how it went?

Surely you jest! If first century Christians (who left everything to follow Him and shared all they had in common) had to return to earth today, they’d laugh at those of us wimps who fight about whether our giving should be voluntary or mandatory as a way to stall relinquishing only a part of what we have…Voluntary giving for Christ’s sake is inextricably linked to following Him: in other words, He doesn’t force anyone to give but no one can truly follow Him without giving. So no, He didn’t take from the Pharisee but I’m pretty sure the Pharisee was not allowed to follow Him with full hands.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Look at the attacks your bishops’ conference statement and Prodigal Son have received for their views. Or others on other threads. So for one problem, lurkers and posters who perhaps don’t realize yet that CAF is not owned by the Church and instead is a private internet forum and business, might be given the perception this extreme conservative political viewpoint are Catholic answers.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out issues in positions but it should not be viewed as an “attack.” These are matters of prudential judgement.

 

[estesbob]

Surely you jest! If first century Christians (who left everything to follow Him and shared all they had in common) had to return to earth today, they’d laugh at those of us wimps who fight about whether our giving should be voluntary or mandatory as a way to stall relinquishing only a part of what we have…Voluntary giving for Christ’s sake is inextricably linked to following Him: in other words, He doesn’t force anyone to give but no one can truly follow Him without giving. So no, He didn’t take from the Pharisee but I’m pretty sure the Pharisee was not allowed to follow Him with full hands.

. I suspect what they would laugh at is the attitude that the federal government should be empowered to seize others’ earnings to fund their version of social justice.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Odd how none of the ‘shared sacrifice’ crowd ever support a flat tax.

At 15% flat tax

Man “A” makes $30K and pays $4500 in taxes. Takes home $25,500

Man “B” makes $200K and pays $30K in takes home $170,000K

Man “A” says “Man “B” can afford more. He should share the sacrifice.”

Under today’s tax code Man “A” not only pays nothing but can actually receives ‘free money’.

 

[rlg94086]

I dislike the misrepresentation of what I say. I definitely put qualifiers in my responses. Gotta love the selective reading

Don’t take it personally. Look what he chose to bold from the Pope:

. The united effort of the international community to eliminate malnutrition and promote genuine development necessarily calls for clear structures of management and oversight, and a realistic assessment of the resources needed to address a wide range of different situations. It requires the contribution of every member of society - individuals, volunteer organizations, businesses, and local and national governments - always with due regard for those ethical and moral principles which are the common patrimony of all people and the foundation of all social life. The international community must always avail itself of this precious treasure of common values since genuine and lasting development can only be furthered in a spirit of cooperation and a willingness to share professional and technical resources.

The Pope lists all sectors of society, with national government last in the list, and he chooses to bold that and say the Pope said “specifically” government. Give me a break! Yes, the government has a role, but the Church also teaches against the Welfare State and the affront to human dignity bureaucracies bring. I guess we should just ignore all that because the Pope mentioned “national government” in his list.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Surely you jest! If first century Christians (who left everything to follow Him and shared all they had in common) had to return to earth today, they’d laugh at those of us wimps who fight about whether our giving should be voluntary or mandatory as a way to stall relinquishing only a part of what we have…Voluntary giving for Christ’s sake is inextricably linked to following Him: in other words, He doesn’t force anyone to give but no one can truly follow Him without giving. So no, He didn’t take from the Pharisee but I’m pretty sure the Pharisee was not allowed to follow Him with full hands.

And it was the Pharisee’s decision to make, not someone else’s.

Some of the posters here seem to support tackling the Pharisee, taking his money then donating it while taking credit for the donation.

 

[rlg94086]

Look at the attacks your bishops’ conference statement and Prodigal Son have received for their views. Or others on other threads. So for one problem, lurkers and posters who perhaps don’t realize yet that CAF is not owned by or affiliated with the Church but instead is a private internet forum and business, might be given the perception this extreme conservative political viewpoint are Catholic answers.

Or, they might read your and Prodigal’s posts and think your extreme viewpoints are Catholic answers.

Do you guys somehow think you are not part of CAF?

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Don’t take it personally. Look what he chose to bold from the Pope:

The Pope lists all sectors of society, with national government last in the list, and he chooses to bold that and say the Pope said “specifically” government. Give me a break! Yes, the government has a role, but the Church also teaches against the Welfare State and the affront to human dignity bureaucracies bring. I guess we should just ignore all that because the Pope mentioned “national government” in his list.

And of course my questions asking them to reconcile their view with the dangers of the welfare state that the church has warned against goes unanswered.