US Bishops' Conference Largely Disappointed by Debt Ceiling Agreement

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This is flat out wrong. Government spending does not spur the economy. Tell me where the the TRILLIONS of increased spending by the Obama administration has fixed the economy??? Maybe you think the government is spending enough?? :rolleyes:

Raising the debt ceiling plain and simple was to “avoid default” which means not paying your debts or the interest on your debts. Good economic policy does not borrow to pay off debt. Can’t you see this is a vicious circle leading to bankruptcy?

That’s common “cents.” I don’t need econ 101 to figure that out.
You tell me where the tax cuts for the wealthy have gone which were supposed to produce all of these jobs? No you don’t have to. The wealthy aren’t spending their tax cuts on creating jobs. So much for that theory. And there is a lot of greed that has penetrated into America’s corporate world as well. Jobs shifted overseas so they can pay less in wages and benefits. But record profits and CEOs getting the kinds of bonuses they do.

And actually no I don’t think the government is spending enough. I would like to see greater spending on rebuilding infrastructure as just one for instance. Bringing America up to speed with other countries, with high speed railways would be great.

I would love to see the President call for a jobs bill and dare the Republicans to face the American people after turning it down.
 
I’m not sure I agree with you here. First, government spending in terms of government employment is an absolute economic pillar. If I recall correctly, the draw down in government employment is believed to have significantly excaberated the great depression. Also, numerous industries owe their modern existence and structure to direct government payments (farming, airlines, ports, passenger trains, education, medical research, etc.) and many others rely heavily upon implied government spending in the forms of tax structure.

That doesn’t mean - of course - that every tax dollar spurs the economy. But I can’t accept the theory that private industry alone is responsible for economic growth and health. We can’t be willfully blind of the impact that government expenditure has on the economy. By far, the federal government is the biggest employer in the country. And the downstream effects that exists as a result of the government’s status as employer can’t be ignored.

Pax,
OA
Excellent! 👍
 
Borrowing to pay living expenses is never a good idea. Do you see how this just leads to more debt?
When one cannot pay necessary living expenses, one will grab at any loan regardless of the realistic prospects of the ability of ever paying back the loan. This the troubling aspect of international charity. It appears that the bishops are espousing philosophies that suggest that we should grasp at any national loan to maintain levels of spending for international charities. They appear to be grasping at any lifesaving device on behalf of international charities, regardless of our ability to payback our international creditors.

Now if we want to discuss our nations living expenses, which ought to be the focus of this discussion thread, one might argue:
  1. Yeah, Carr’s right. We can afford to cut Pentagon spending in favor of domestic & international social programs (if we re-institute the Mexico policy).
  2. Maybe we should pull out of some of our wars quickly, so that we can concentrate domestic charities.
Things like that, where Dr.Carr may have some valid points in his limited portrayal of Catholic social justice.
 
I know many people who would not have shelter or transportation for instance without having gone into debt.
That is fantastic! Spending money in credit makes the assumption that you will continue to have cashflow to pay of the obligation. What happens when you cannot pay? Is it immoral for the creditor to collect the asset or put a lien on the debtor?
 
Carrying debt on an asset is not a bad thing until the asset loses value and is worth less than what is owed on it. That’s what is the cause of the housing crisis today. How did that happen?
Partly happened due to greedy banks along with them making certain loans.
 
Partly happened due to greedy banks along with them making certain loans.
The banks did it because Congress made it possible by loostening lending regulations and then telling the banks that Fanny and Freddie would back them up.
 
That is fantastic! Spending money in credit makes the assumption that you will continue to have cashflow to pay of the obligation. What happens when you cannot pay? Is it immoral for the creditor to collect the asset or put a lien on the debtor?
:extrahappy: Woo hoo! NOW we are where we should be. Increasing taxes on those most able to afford it will bring government more cashflow to help meet its obligations to keep making payments on its bills and obligations.
 
Borrowing to pay living expenses is never a good idea. Do you see how this just leads to more debt?
You haven’t answered this question.
You tell me where the tax cuts for the wealthy have gone which were supposed to produce all of these jobs? No you don’t have to. The wealthy aren’t spending their tax cuts on creating jobs. So much for that theory.
That question has already been answered in this thread.
And there is a lot of greed that has penetrated into America’s corporate world as well. Jobs shifted overseas so they can pay less in wages and benefits. But record profits and CEOs getting the kinds of bonuses they do.
Riiight, those evil rich corporations (I happen to work for one). No greed or evil in the government. You can trust them. 😉
And actually no I don’t think the government is spending enough. I would like to see greater spending on rebuilding infrastructure as just one for instance. Bringing America up to speed with other countries, with high speed railways would be great.
I would love to see the President call for a jobs bill and dare the Republicans to face the American people after turning it down.
Watch out, here we come.
 
:extrahappy: Woo hoo! NOW we are where we should be. Increasing taxes on those most able to afford it will bring government more cashflow to meet its obligations!
Except, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, even if we taxed the rich 100% it still wouldn’t be enough money!
You’ve been given hard numbers and you come back with platitudes.😦
 
:extrahappy: Woo hoo! NOW we are where we should be. Increasing taxes on those most able to afford it will bring government more cashflow to help meet its obligations to keep making payments on its bills and obligations.
We could tax every citizen in this country to destitute poverty and still not fix the cashflow problem. We would still be cashflow negative and have a ruined economy to boot. Is that what you want? Why can’t you admit that the government has written checks that the body (of taxpayers) cannot cash.
 
We could tax every citizen in this country to destitute poverty and still not fix the cashflow problem. We would still be cashflow negative and have a ruined economy to boot. Is that what you want? Why can’t you admit that the government has written checks that the body (of taxpayers) cannot cash.
He avoids this question and avoids to directly address this fair point. I wonder if it’s on purpose… 😉
 
:extrahappy: Woo hoo! NOW we are where we should be. Increasing taxes on those most able to afford it will bring government more cashflow to help meet its obligations to keep making payments on its bills and obligations.
Please address the issue at hand. Why do you choose not to address this?

We could tax everyone and corpations over $75K at 100% of income and only just have enough to cover current budgets. The common sense thing to do would be to have deep budget cuts, revamp entitlement programs and take a hard look at the tax code.

Simply saying raising the taxes on the rich is not the solution. The numbers don’t agree with you.
 
And actually no I don’t think the government is spending enough. I would like to see greater spending on rebuilding infrastructure as just one for instance. Bringing America up to speed with other countries, with high speed railways would be great.
Interesting. My great grandfather retired from the Erie RR after 50+ years of service. He wrote an article for the Erie RR magazine where he lamented the government’s special treatment of the automobile & trucking interests, putting the rail industry at an unfair competitive advantage where their profits financed their competitors. I have to admit that I have a soft spot for public rails. It’s a bias and a lure to your wild side of increased public spending. The fact is that sometimes public spending is well spent and adds to economic growth, but often it manhandles and mandates the private sector to death.
 
I’m not sure I agree with you here. First, government spending in terms of government employment is an absolute economic pillar. If I recall correctly, the draw down in government employment is believed to have significantly excaberated the great depression. Also, numerous industries owe their modern existence and structure to direct government payments (farming, airlines, ports, passenger trains, education, medical research, etc.) and many others rely heavily upon implied government spending in the forms of tax structure.

That doesn’t mean - of course - that every tax dollar spurs the economy. But I can’t accept the theory that private industry alone is responsible for economic growth and health. We can’t be willfully blind of the impact that government expenditure has on the economy. By far, the federal government is the biggest employer in the country. And the downstream effects that exists as a result of the government’s status as employer can’t be ignored.

Pax,
OA
I don’t think many would argue with this as a general proposition. Where it becomes difficult is when one tries to get to specifics, or even to the more general question how much debt and spending are too much.

I think all would agree that, say, government absorption of all income would be too much. Well, true Marxists might not quite, but most would. I think all would agree that no taxpayer support for the government at all is too little. I think all would agree that, in general, it’s better for the government to pay its way with money that is actually created by production than for it to do so with money that’s borrowed or simply created by fiat.

The government runs chronic deficits, and has for a long time, but right now it’s particularly high. And, we’re facing a fairly high unemployment level, a higher still underemployment level and a lack of investment. I think most would agree with those statements.

It would be one thing if government deficits could reasonably be projected out to disappear or to at least moderate to a more traditional level, but they don’t. Even if one assumes a return to a better GDP, they don’t. They keep devouring more and more of the nation’s production.

Now, regarding the Keynesian “multiplier effect” which I think is what you’re talking about, it has some merits, but it does not take certain things into consideration. In particular, it doesn’t take distribution into account or relative efficiences of one kind of spending over another. Aside from truly useful infrastructure building (“goods having common utility, relatively equal to all”) and defense, most government spending is what may be reasonably called 'transfer payments", that is, money transferred from one citizen to another.

A problem with transfer payments is that, while some are certainly reasonable in a decent society, some bear no particular relationship with either need or usefulness to the economy generally. In addition, using a simplified expression “IL + IP=C -T” (Income from labor plus income from property equals consumption minus transfers) it has to be recognized that there are voluntary transfers as well as involuntary transfers. To the extent involuntary transfers increase, voluntary transfers decrease. So, for example, if my taxes increase (involuntary transfer) my ability to provide for my spouse, children, next door neighbor, church and favorite charities decreases.

Income from work + Income from transfers has equalled approximately 2/3 of national income since records have been kept. (about 1929). That never varies by more than a few percentage points, no matter what. The remaining 1/3 is income from property (capital).

An interesting thing is that income from work always decreases when income from transfers increases. That’s because one way or another, most of the transferred income comes from work through taxes of all kinds, and not just the income tax.

So, in the face of recession that seems to threaten depression, is increasing transfer payments really the thing to do? Well, there’s that “multiplier effect”. But simply positing the multiplier effect ignores the fact that the money expected to multiply would likely have done so anyway, but in a more efficient manner. VERY simply put, the mother who, say, buys milk, buys and distributes it among children, husband, herself and perhaps a neighbor, in a more efficient and effective manner than does a government program that buys milk, pays a manufacturer to turn it into cheese and stores it in caves until it can figure out a way to get rid of it. (which is what it does)

But it has to be admitted that savings is also a “transfer”, or a part of it. So, do we need to seize all savings and spend it on social programs or whatever? After all, the banks are awash in money and nobody wants to borrow. So what’s the answer?

In my opinion, it is to remove the obstacles to spending and employment. As in the Depression, those obstacles are largely caution due to a fear of a threatening situation. What’s the threatening situation? Well, unknown costs of employment, unknown but oncoming regulation affecting employment, unknown but threatening tax burdens, unknown but threatening interest rates, unknown but threatening costs of energy and everything that uses energy, to state a few.

In short, a government that does radical and disturbing things, and not just in spending.

Other than the 2012 elections (and only “maybe” those) there really isn’t a remedy for what we’re facing now. Ideology rules and good sense is not prevailing.
 
Interesting. My great grandfather retired from the Erie RR after 50+ years of service. He wrote an article for the Erie RR magazine where he lamented the government’s special treatment of the automobile & trucking interests, putting the rail industry at an unfair competitive advantage where their profits financed their competitors. I have to admit that I have a soft spot for public rails. It’s a bias and a lure to your wild side of increased public spending. The fact is that sometimes public spending is well spent and adds to economic growth, but often it manhandles and mandates the private sector to death.
I like trains too. But a few days ago, I was reading an ancient National Geographic. The ads are particularly interesting. It was from the 1920s. Anyway, there were lots of ads for "through trains’ from one part of the country to another. A couple advertised a nonstop trip from Chicago to San Francisco in, well, juse short of three days. Now remember that those trains went 70+mph. This is going to replace airline travel? Notwithstanding the scenery and the luxury (those trains really were sumptuous) not many people would take them even if they went twice as fast. And would there be a train from, say, Miami, Ok to Tulsa? I’m not sure the U.S. is anywhere near populated enough to have rails serve the purpose they serve in Europe.

I don’t think it’s purely a matter of subsidy. After all, the trains were very heavily subsidized by the government as well, and besides, highways are actually paid for by the users through fuel tax. It’s not a “net loss” to the government.
 
Please address the issue at hand. Why do you choose not to address this?

We could tax everyone and corpations over $75K at 100% of income and only just have enough to cover current budgets. The common sense thing to do would be to have deep budget cuts, revamp entitlement programs and take a hard look at the tax code.

Simply saying raising the taxes on the rich is not the solution. The numbers don’t agree with you.
Once the mystical, magical money trees are mature, we will have forests full of money. There will be no poor, and the streets will be paved with gold…
 
If you really want to get at the heart of the issue, you tax wealth, not income. Taxes on income always hurt the middle and lower class more than the upper class, who’s wealth is based on assets, not income.
Yes, you should tax wealth more, but income tax can be raised for the top brackets without hurting the middle-class.
Other than that, you seem to really like the government coming in and stealing from one group and disbursing it among others who have no legitimate claim to it.
I don’t agree that taxes is stealing, and I don’t think you do either. Shouldn’t police services be paid with taxes? Shouldn’t emergency care be paid with taxes? If one does not volunteer one’s resources to pay for these things, and one cannot be forced, it seems a libertarian cannot support taxation for anything.

Here is some other stuff that cannot be done according to libertarianism: making drugs illegal, having a draft for the military, making voluntary euthanasia (for any reason) illegal, banning abortion, etc.

It is even worse than this since rights are only given to those capable of self-ownership. A premise for self-ownership is autonomy. That concept refers to the capacity of rational beings to make informed, un-coerced decisions. An embryo have no such capacity, and is therefore without rights. Even a baby lack this, and is therefore without rights. Any attempt to give self-ownership rights to non-autonomous but sentient beings like babies(but not embryos), results in animals given the same self-ownership rights as babies (since they satisfy the requirement of sentience).
You see the difference is merely the government passes laws so what they do is legal.
Yeah, not buying it. That is not the only difference. I would, however, agree that the issue of redistribution is not a simple one. It is indeed a complex issue, and simply branding redistribution through taxation as stealing is an oversimplification.
Now if you really want shared sacrifice let’s do something constructive. Let’s tax the 47% who pay no taxes so everybody has to have skin in the game. Also let’s rewrite the 503c regulations that will tax funds given to charities that are not distributed to the poor and needy. After all this go ahead and then tax the rich for more if you have to.
What do you mean when you say they pay no taxes? I think what you mean to say is that 47% of the population don’t pay federal income tax. Even so, they still pay other kinds of taxes, don’t they? There is payroll tax, local taxes, state taxes, sales tax (which is regressive) etc.

As I explained earlier, the only reason the rich are paying so much taxes (not as a percentage of their own income) is because their pretax income have risen dramatically. In the long run, something has to be done to raise wages for the middle class and the poor. That would increase their tax burden. To increase their tax burden when they own so little of total wealth an earn so little of total income is clearly unfair. A proper balance cannot be met only with tax increases, but in this situation where the government is skint for cash, raising taxes should be done before cutting programs for the middle-class and the poor.
Again if higher taxes are needed why not raise them on everybody? . We have a tax system that already excludes 47% of earners from paying any federal income tax. . And yet all we hear is complaints about the rich, who already pay the bulk of all federal income taxes, not paying enough.
See my answer to stevegravy.
The truth is that everybody wants higher taxes on everybody but themselves. The liberal definition of shared sacrifice is you sacrifice, I share,
Not true. The two richest people in America, Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, wants to raise taxes on the rich. This is because of what I have already explained. The rich have secured such a high percentage of total income and total wealth that they are very capable of paying more taxes, and they can easily do this without paying a high percentage of their own income.
 
Not true. The two richest people in America, Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, wants to raise taxes on the rich. This is because of what I have already explained. The rich have secured such a high percentage of total income and total wealth that they are very capable of paying more taxes, and they can easily do this without paying a high percentage of their own income.
There is absolutely nothing whatsoever to keep them from sending as much money into Internal Revenue Service. as they want. They most certainly do not speak for everybody that makes over $250,000 a year, the nonsensical definition of “rich” used by the current administration.

. Again the top 25% of earners in this country pay 84% of all federal income tax. What do you think the fair level should be? 90% 100%

47% of earners pay no federal income tax whatsoever. . Do you think this level is too high or too low?
 
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