US Bishops' Conference Largely Disappointed by Debt Ceiling Agreement

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Wow! Has this thread grown!

I have said this before, but I’ll repeat it. It is unlikely that any tax increases will significantly affect the truly rich. The burden of increased tax RATES will fall on the middle class, and we ought to think about that.

Warren Buffett has said that his RATE is lower than his secretary’s. No reason to doubt him. But why? Well, I don’t know for sure, but it’s easy to think of ways he could do that.

First of all, people with a lot of asset wealth (particularly that was bought cheap and is now much more valuable…as with Buffett…can control their income. For one thing, their “consumer assets”…home, etc, are already paid for. So they don’t need cash flow to buy those things in installments the way the rest of us do. They only draw out of their asset wealth what they need at any point in time. A high-earning plant manager somewhere can’t do that. His salary is fixed, and he can’t control its inflow the way Buffett can.

Second, the truly rich can, and do, give quite a bit of it away. Take Buffett for example, or Gates. They have donated billions to a private foundation they control. That means they have enormous offsets to income. It’s a wonder Buffett pays income taxes at all.

Unless that whole thing gets changed somehow, raising tax rates won’t affect what some feel is an inequity in the tax burden.

It’s true that lower income people can end up paying more in taxes as a percentage of income than people who make much more. That’s because of Social Security and medicare taxes. It amazes me when people who say that’s a “tax”, then turn around and say SS benefits are somehow “earned”. “I paid that in, and I’m entitled to it.” It’s either a tax or a retirement trust fund, but it isn’t both. One could just as well say low income workers are bigger savers.

But it is a tax. There’s no trust fund. It’s really “pay as you go”. So, should SS taxes be made more progressive? And if so, is there really any good reason to pretend any longer that it’s some sort of “savings account”?

Aside from the fact that wages from work go down as entitlement spending goes up (a problem all its own) the system would have to be changed significantly to adapt to the notion that SS taxes are really just a “tax” and not a 'retirement contribution". For one thing, SS benefits are based on what a person pays in over a lifetime of work, relative the maximum benefit payable at the time. So, when we increase the income on which SS tax is collected, we automatically reduce benefits for those who earn less than the maximum upon which tax is paid.

Obama’s “tax the rich” proposal is just one more piece of scotch tape on a machine that is, by now, largely composed of bits of scotch tape, and nobody seems to notice that the underlying machine fell into a heap long ago, leaving only the scotch tape.

What a truly, genuinely “Catholic approach” to all of this is another story, far too long to expound further here. I’ll be lucky if this post isn’t too long already.
Bernie Madoff is in jail for doing what the federal government has been doing with social
security for years. Social security is the largest ponzi scheme ever devised. Pax. Tom T;)
 
If the root causes of people seeking abortions (social, moral, spiritual) are not effectively addressed, all making abortion illegal is likely to do is close down the clinics - then we will be free to fool ourselves that abortion has been substantially reduced because of course the people having them will NOT be talking.
Emphasis is mine.

Many have posted ‘spins’ accusing people in favor of social programs as seeking to have someone else do their charity for them. As Christians we are called to share the Gospel. Through sharing the Gospel we interact with individuals, some of who may be considering an abortion. It is no more fair to accuse some of wanting social programs to do their charity for them than to accuse others of wanting abortion illegal to fulfill their obligation to share the Gospel and change the minds of those who might consider such an action.

I would think that if people approached someone considering an abortion with the same tone, and tactics, as used against fellow Catholics on this forum, a positive outcome might not be achieved. We are called to love and charity in all things. It is through those principles of Christ that good may be achieved. Even then I would not expect 100% as each individual has free will granted to them by God. We cannot force against free will with legislation alone. We must seek a change of heart. God does not force against free will, even though He most certainly could.

Many actions are legislated, yet crimes continue against legislation. While legislation is one way to approach an issue, there is a lot more work necessary to end the issue.
 
Wrong - that’s just the biggest carpet to sweep it under. I’m not advocating keeping it legal to prevent medical complications of backstreet abortions (that’s usually the immediate response when I post such views), I’m simply stating a fact. If the root causes of people seeking abortions (social, moral, spiritual) are not effectively addressed, all making abortion illegal is likely to do is close down the clinics - then we will be free to fool ourselves that abortion has been substantially reduced because of course the people having them will NOT be talking.
You’re wrong about me being wrong. I agree that there will still be abortion, as there is any other crime. However, one could reasonably assume that since it will be harder to procure one it will end up with a reduction of abortion.

I do agree that we do need to address the root causes of abortion, irregardless of whether it is legal or not.
 
Emphasis is mine.

Many have posted ‘spins’ accusing people in favor of social programs as seeking to have someone else do their charity for them. As Christians we are called to share the Gospel. Through sharing the Gospel we interact with individuals, some of who may be considering an abortion. It is no more fair to accuse some of wanting social programs to do their charity for them than to accuse others of wanting abortion illegal to fulfill their obligation to share the Gospel and change the minds of those who might consider such an action.

I would think that if people approached someone considering an abortion with the same tone, and tactics, as used against fellow Catholics on this forum, a positive outcome might not be achieved. We are called to love and charity in all things. It is through those principles of Christ that good may be achieved. Even then I would not expect 100% as each individual has free will granted to them by God. We cannot force against free will with legislation alone. We must seek a change of heart. God does not force against free will, even though He most certainly could.

Many actions are legislated, yet crimes continue against legislation. While legislation is one way to approach an issue, there is a lot more work necessary to end the issue.
So, it’s okay to completely ignore complete sections of church teaching in order to help the poor?
 
So, it’s okay to completely ignore complete sections of church teaching in order to help the poor?
No one has said that. In fact, I proposed the approaches taught by the Church, which is to change the hearts and minds of non-believers so that they believe in Church teachings.
 
The safety net is not just medicare.

It provides grants to Catholic Relief Services - grants that provide foster care, housing assistance, job training, feeding programs, on and on. including aid to help women chose life by helping them have the support they need / Cuts to veteran benefits - are also part of the safety net.

I think the big difference is how those who benefit from the safety net are viewed.
Some here apply either a personal experience or anecdotal evidence to reinforce a belief that the poor have made a choice to be poor. I believe people who meet this view are few, and I would certainly advocate for oversight and work to get people off welfare.
It’s not so much as a choice. It’s that they don’t know any better as there is no reason to get off of it. Human nature is to do the least amount of work possible 🤷

I agree that the stories I tell could be the minority of cases. But, I think it’s disengenuous to think that there is no abuse going on - and it could very well ruin it for the people that actually need services. One bad apple…
 
And I find it very derogatory that someone is willing to vote for pro-abortion (which amounts to legal genocide) canidates under the guise of “helping the poor.” I find the whole thing a very hypocritical.
Originally Posted by ComputerGeek25 -
And some people think the right thing to do is slowly wean people off the government teat.

My response: A big part of the safety net is job training - moving people to self-sufficiency (I believe that fits your very DEROGATORY reference)

So, rather than address my comment about job training being part of the safety net, it is easier to return to that comfortable place and make the statement that to be for social programs makes one pro-abortion. Again, I am pro social programs AND pro life. I think they go together. Some find it hypocritical to be pro life - advocating for an end to abortions and not be pro social programs that help people who are already born. **It is possible to be both pro life and pro social programs - I am, and others on this thread are. ** It is SO frustrating that we keep going back to this - the article in the OP from the USCCB (certainly pro life) speaks about the needs to maintain programs that provide for the poor -

Blessings,
 
It’s not so much as a choice. It’s that they don’t know any better as there is no reason to get off of it. Human nature is to do the least amount of work possible 🤷

I agree that the stories I tell could be the minority of cases. But, I think it’s disengenuous to think that there is no abuse going on - and it could very well ruin it for the people that actually need services. One bad apple…
Of course there is abuse going on, in government, in banking, in social programs -
HOWEVER - we do not eliminate them because of abuse - we work to correct the abuse.
 
It’s not so much as a choice. It’s that they don’t know any better as there is no reason to get off of it. Human nature is to do the least amount of work possible 🤷

I agree that the stories I tell could be the minority of cases. But, I think it’s disengenuous to think that there is no abuse going on - and it could very well ruin it for the people that actually need services. One bad apple…
Do you think our Church’s social programs can be taken advantage of? If it were proven so, should our Church stop providing those type programs?
 
Do you think our Church’s social programs can be taken advantage of? If it were proven so, should our Church stop providing those type programs?
Talk about twisting people’s posts. Well at least you didn’t parse it to fit your claims.
 
Originally Posted by ComputerGeek25 -
And some people think the right thing to do is slowly wean people off the government teat.

My response: A big part of the safety net is job training - moving people to self-sufficiency (I believe that fits your very DEROGATORY reference)

So, rather than address my comment about job training being part of the safety net, it is easier to return to that comfortable place and make the statement that to be for social programs makes one pro-abortion. Again, I am pro social programs AND pro life. I think they go together. Some find it hypocritical to be pro life - advocating for an end to abortions and not be pro social programs that help people who are already born. **It is possible to be both pro life and pro social programs - I am, and others on this thread are. ** It is SO frustrating that we keep going back to this - the article in the OP from the USCCB (certainly pro life) speaks about the needs to maintain programs that provide for the poor -

Blessings,
:rolleyes:

I never said people who are pro-social programs are pro-abortion.

I simply re-stated (perhaps poorly) church teaching that one needs proportional reason to vote for someone who is pro-abortion. I don’t think that supporting the staus quo of current social programs justifies voting for pro-abort canidate.
 
But it is a tax. There’s no trust fund. It’s really “pay as you go”. So, should SS taxes be made more progressive? And if so, is there really any good reason to pretend any longer that it’s some sort of “savings account”?
Very good post. I have trouble with the concept of social security not being a personal savings account. To me, social security should be a mandated percentage of individual income into a personal retirement savings account investing in government bonds.
 
Do you think our Church’s social programs can be taken advantage of? If it were proven so, should our Church stop providing those type programs?
Stop twisting my words.

I never said or implied that the church or government should stop their chairty.

I am simply stating that there has to be better policing and means testing and at least a plan to help make people self suficient. Especially when it comes to public funds.
 
Talk about twisting people’s posts. Well at least you didn’t parse it to fit your claim first.
👍

I would like to know where I have ever said to do away with any safety net or charity, provided by the government, church or other organization?
 
Of course there is abuse going on, in government, in banking, in social programs -
HOWEVER - we do not eliminate them because of abuse - we work to correct the abuse.
I never said elimate the programs entirely. I am saying that we should hold recipients more accountable form their actions, especially if it is public funding.
 
Stop twisting my words.

I never said or implied that the church or government should stop their chairty.

I am simply stating that there has to be better policing and means testing and at least a plan to help make people self suficient. Especially when it comes to public funds.
I misunderstood your ‘one bad apple’ statement then. I, and others, agree that a better testing needs to be in place.

If it’s a better testing that needs to take place, we need to relay that information to our politicians to avoid cuts that may affect those who truly need. Then a new problem may arise, which is larger government to do the ‘testing’.

I’m not sure how it’s going to work, but Florida will soon require drug tests of state social program recipients. What I question is what about children of those who test positive?

We don’t throw away a barrel of apples, we pick the bad ones out…
 
Talk about twisting people’s posts. Well at least you didn’t parse it to fit your claims.
They were questions from a misunderstanding, which I admitted to.

It was ironic reading your post, from someone who has not responded to multiple requests to provide supporting scriptures for your interpretation of a single verse you provided. 🤷
 
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