US Bishops' Conference Largely Disappointed by Debt Ceiling Agreement

[ComputerGeek25]

I misunderstood your ‘one bad apple’ statement then. I, and others, agree that a better testing needs to be in place.

If it’s a better testing that needs to take place, we need to relay that information to our politicians to avoid cuts that may affect those who truly need. Then a new problem may arise, which is larger government to do the ‘testing’.

I’m not sure how it’s going to work, but Florida will soon require drug tests of state social program recipients. What I question is what about children of those who test positive?

We don’t throw away a barrel of apples, we pick the bad ones out…

The issue with the one bad apple thing is that people will use that as an excuse to cut more or eliminate social programs, charitable giving, etc. To an extent, I can’t say I blame them, they do make a point - but as you say it’s like throwing out the whole barrel even though a percentage of the apples are good. The question I ask is why are the apples bad in the first place and can we catch it before it becomes a problem.

As to your concern about the children from homes with parents that are drug users. I think a strong foster system would be a start. Surely it would be better than what they are currently dealing with.

 

[CMatt25]

I would think that if people approached someone considering an abortion with the same tone, and tactics, as used against fellow Catholics on this forum, a positive outcome might not be achieved.

true

 

[iamrefreshed]

I’m sorry - I was responding to your comment that if you father didn’t feed you then someone would take you out of your home. Following that thought what that would require (as it does sadly for many children even with free lunches)

Do you think it is possibly that you have made an error in judgment to believe your experience is universally applicable?

I never said it was universal. Nothing is universal.

Do you think it is possible that some like myself who advocate for things like free lunches do so not to ‘feel good’ but because we believe it is the right thing to do?

Of course I do. I just think you are misguided in many instances.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Such generalizations, with a judgment of those scratching off tickets. Show us the number that actually need it, and how you can tell simply by looking at them. Also explain how you know the people buying scratch offs are receiving assistance.

The same way you know everyone is in need with your generalizations based on your EMT visits.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The same way you know everyone is in need with your generalizations based on your EMT visits.

I’m sure my view is highly influenced by what I personally observe, as well as His teachings. I’m not saying, or trying to say, I’m perfect. I’m not. I often have to reflect on some of my judgments of something I observe with the eye, and pray for forgiveness and guidance. Judgements are very hard to avoid. A part of my prayers are to see Christ in all that I encounter, and that they may see the compassion of Christ through me.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The issue with the one bad apple thing is that people will use that as an excuse to cut more or eliminate social programs, charitable giving, etc. To an extent, I can’t say I blame them, they do make a point - but as you say it’s like throwing out the whole barrel even though a percentage of the apples are good. The question I ask is why are the apples bad in the first place and can we catch it before it becomes a problem.

‘Apples’ are bad because we have all sinned and come short… And it’s not due strictly to economic conditions. There are very wealthy people who ‘cheat’ the system too. There are none perfect…on earth.

As to your concern about the children from homes with parents that are drug users. I think a strong foster system would be a start. Surely it would be better than what they are currently dealing with.

Young ones don’t all have the capacity to understand a separation from their parents is in their best interests. Then there’s the strong foster system, that is another government financed system. It’s vicious, and sometimes sad, circle. It can be hard for some to comprehend, and just as hard providing solutions. Bottom line, it may take a redirection of money, but I don’t see cuts to overcome the problems.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

‘Apples’ are bad because we have all sinned and come short… And it’s not due strictly to economic conditions. There are very wealthy people who ‘cheat’ the system too. There are none perfect…on earth.

No qualms about it here.

Young ones don’t all have the capacity to understand a separation from their parents is in their best interests. Then there’s the strong foster system, that is another government financed system. It’s vicious, and sometimes sad, circle. It can be hard for some to comprehend, and just as hard providing solutions. Bottom line, it may take a redirection of money, but I don’t see cuts to overcome the problems.

But again, leaving children in the situation does no good either. Mommy and/or daddy need to be sent to rehab and/or jail. I don’t think many have a problem if funds were being sent to do this. However, the government/charity is seen as an enabler in some cases, however twisted the logic is.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Very good post. I have trouble with the concept of social security not being a personal savings account. To me, social security should be a mandated percentage of individual income into a personal retirement savings account investing in government bonds.

Perhaps so. That’s one way of doing it. Then it really would be a “pension fund”, not just a “tax”. The other way is to admit it’s just a “tax” like any other and make the benefits means-tested, just like welfare is and SSI is.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Yeah basically. On either, one be pushed off and they get hurt when they hit the ground.

Ya basically, they took something that was intended to stop people from getting hurt when they hit the ground and turned it into a recreational device.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I’m sure my view is highly influenced by what I personally observe, as well as His teachings. I’m not saying, or trying to say, I’m perfect. I’m not. I often have to reflect on some of my judgments of something I observe with the eye, and pray for forgiveness and guidance. Judgements are very hard to avoid. A part of my prayers are to see Christ in all that I encounter, and that they may see the compassion of Christ through me.

Then I take it your finished accusing everyone else of generalizations since you’ve admitted you are just as guilty?

All of our views are highly influenced by what we personally observe (or live through) as well as His teachings. You’re not special.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Then I take it your finished accusing everyone else of generalizations since you’ve admitted you are just as guilty?

All of our views are highly influenced by what we personally observe (or live through) as well as His teachings. You’re not special.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Then I take it your finished accusing everyone else of generalizations since you’ve admitted you are just as guilty?

All of our views are highly influenced by what we personally observe (or live through) as well as His teachings. You’re not special.

I’ve admitted my faults. It is through my own faults that I recognize the generalizations used by others.

Thank you for showing me that what I wrote might be taken as a lack of humility. I am not special and never intended to imply such by sharing my personal faults and approaches on how to deal with them in a way to please Him.

 

[SamH]

I’ve admitted my faults. It is through my own faults that I recognize the generalizations used by others.
.

Actually what you are doing is called projection.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Actually what you are doing is called projection.

When I received notification of your posting, I had hoped you were finally providing the supporting scriptures of your interpretation of the verse you provided. That is called avoiding.

Call it what you like. Through my own faults and Christ’s teachings, I weigh actions and can offer a personal view of whether I see it as right or wrong, based on if I had committed the action myself.

Who on this thread has not done the same?

 

[SamH]

When I received notification of your posting, I had hoped you were finally providing the supporting scriptures of your interpretation of the verse you provided. That is called avoiding.

I already provided that, it was the rest of the interpretation that you cut off your own post because it supported what I said all along.

If you wish to deny your own quoted sources why would anything I provide satisfy you?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I already provided that, it was the rest of the interpretation that you cut off your own post because it supported what I said all along.

If you wish to deny your own quoted sources why would anything I provide satisfy you?

Still not supporting scriptures to support the interpretation? Read scriptures, within scriptures. I provided passages where Christ taught to feed the poor, and hungry, If we accepted your interpretation, His teaching would be a contradiction.

Let’s go with the topic of this thread, provide any Church official from today that teaches if someone doesn’t work, they shouldn’t eat, or that teaches against giving to the poor.

I cut nothing off. You supplied a single verse and I supplied the commentary on that verse. You are twisting a single verse to fit a political view. Christ did not teach, according to that interpretation. You prefer to accuse me falsely only to inflame and it’s not an honest dialogue.

Our posts speak for themselves and it’s easy for anyone to see what’s going on.

God Bless,

 

[SamH]

I cut nothing off. You supplied a single verse and I supplied the commentary on that verse. You are twisting a single verse to fit a political view. Christ did not teach, according to that interpretation. You prefer to accuse me falsely only to inflame and it’s not an honest dialogue.

Our posts speak for themselves and it’s easy for anyone to see what’s going on.

God Bless,

Your edited quote

Here’s another commentary from Haydock’s Catholic Commentary.

Quote:
2Th 3:10 Not work. By prying with curiosity into other men’s actions. He that is idle, saith St. John Chrysostom, will be given to curiosity. (Witham) — The apostles, like our Lord, were fond of introducing popular saying or axioms. Another, and not unlike the former, is found in one of the Jewish rabbies, Zeror: Qui non laboraverit in Prosabbato, ne edat in Sabbato.

The actual full commentary from Haydock’s Catholic Commentary that I quoted.

haydock1859.tripod.com/id225.html

Ver. 10. Not work. By prying with curiosity into other men’s actions. He that is idle, saith St. Chrysostom, will be given to curiosity. (Witham) — The apostles, like our Lord, were fond of introducing popular saying or axioms. Another, and not unlike the former, is found in one of the Jewish rabbies, Zeror:

Qui non laboraverit in Prosabbato, nè edat in Sabbato.

Ver. 12.*** Eat their own bread, which they work for, and deserve, not that of others***. (Witham)

I bolded the section that you cut off.

Please answer, why do you want everyone to know your deplorable act (on a religious site no less)? Are you somehow proud of it?

Why do you wish to keep poor people poor?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your edited quote

The actual full commentary from Haydock’s Catholic Commentary that I quoted.

I bolded the section that you cut off.

Please answer, why do you want everyone to know your deplorable act (on a religious site no less)? Are you somehow proud of it?

Why do you wish to keep poor people poor?

You are going to a great length to make someone look like a liar, for sport, or you are having trouble comprehending. In hopes it’s the latter and innocent, I am going to try and explain it to you one last time.

Look at the part of the commentary, you say I ‘cut off’. You provided a single verse, verse 10. The commentary you say I cut off, says, ‘Ver. 12’. In my Bible program, I can only see the commentary for a single verse at a time, and copied and pasted what was available.

The added part of your most recent post about a ‘deplorable act’ is very suspect to say the least, especially in light of the fact I requested several times that you provide other scriptures to support the view you’re trying convey, specifically that those that don’t work, shouldn’t be fed. I even provided a passage of Christ teaching the following.

Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame and the blind.
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed, because they have not wherewith to make thee recompense:

I also provided the following passage, again of what Christ taught.

Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
Mat 25:40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
Mat 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
Mat 25:45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Clearly, to me, these teachings conflict with the context of the single verse you’re trying to use to justify not giving to the poor, those on social programs that don’t work.

Again, you ask, ‘Why do you wish to keep poor people poor?’ This question is another attempt to try and make someone look bad, or inflame, as I’ve never said anything of the sort and have tried to convey what I believe is a Christian attitude of helping the poor in need, according to Christ’s teachings. Anyone can read through this thread and see that.

If you wish to continue with the false innuendos, and dishonest dialogue, I won’t bother responding to you. As I say, I am comfortable letting our posts speak for themselves.

God Bless.

 

[seekerz]

You’re wrong about me being wrong. I agree that there will still be abortion, as there is any other crime. However, one could reasonably assume that since it will be harder to procure one it will end up with a reduction of abortion.

I do agree that we do need to address the root causes of abortion, irregardless of whether it is legal or not.

At the risk of turning this into another of our endless abortion threads, I will address your ‘reasonable’ assumption. Closing down clinics will make abortion less visible, but since the methods of procurement vary from those requiring a surgical suite to those requiring the four walls of one’s home (not necessarily something those who stand to profit from it will advertise in our present setting), I don’t see that a significant decline in numbers will necessarily follow.

Focusing on root causes on the other hand (not that both cannot or should not be done) has the potential to address both moral and social malaise in a more comprehensive and lasting way. My issue with focusing on ending a procedure, is that it does nothing to relieve the social pressures that induce people to such an act. It’s like trying to stop the end of a garden hose with your finger without turning the tap off.

Poverty is at the root of many problems in society but an even greater cause in my opinion is the lack of social cohesiveness which would allow one group to help or to seek help from the other in an enabling manner that promotes stability and strengthens the community. How we got to be the way we are, I’m not sure, but there has to be a balance between self-reliance and community responsibility otherwise everybody loses.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

You are going to a great length to make someone look like a liar, for sport, or you are having trouble comprehending. In hopes it’s the latter and innocent, I am going to try and explain it to you one last time.

Look at the part of the commentary, you say I ‘cut off’. You provided a single verse, verse 10. The commentary you say I cut off, says, ‘Ver. 12’. In my Bible program, I can only see the commentary for a single verse at a time, and copied and pasted what was available.

The added part of your most recent post about a ‘deplorable act’ is very suspect to say the least, especially in light of the fact I requested several times that you provide other scriptures to support the view you’re trying convey, specifically that those that don’t work, shouldn’t be fed. I even provided a passage of Christ teaching the following.

I also provided the following passage, again of what Christ taught.

Clearly, to me, these teachings conflict with the context of the single verse you’re trying to use to justify not giving to the poor, those on social programs that don’t work.

Again, you ask, ‘Why do you wish to keep poor people poor?’ This question is another attempt to try and make someone look bad, as I’ve never said anything of the sort and have tried to convey what I believe is a Christian attitude of helping the poor in need, according to Christ’s teachings. Anyone can read through this thread and see that.

If you wish to continue with the false innuendos, and dishonest dialogue, I won’t bother responding to you. As I say, I am comfortable letting our posts speak for themselves.

God Bless.

Ok, here’s an honest question for you. Let’s take a verifiable example.

One can argue that the inner city/urban schools are failing if you look at graduation rates and test scores, despite having more money spent per child than their suburban and rural counterparts. Quite simply, throwing money at the problem hasn’t produced much in the way of measurable results.

How do propose that we fix the problem? It can be said that education is the one of the ways out of poverty.

(Disclaimer, I am not saying cut educational funding, even though you may read it as such)