US Bishops: Save SNAP

  • Thread starter Thread starter BigBlueCane
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Or if you are vegetarian you could get more than 10 pounds of carrots and bananas.

We’re doing spaghetti tonight. That runs us maybe $6 or so, and if you break it down to the individual, that’s at least 5 meals. We always have leftovers and I might get 2 or 3 extra meals out of it for myself.

I just don’t think people understand how cheap food is, or can be when you aren’t eating high end rich people food.
 
Did she feed you steak every night as the poster I was responding to suggests is possible with SNAP?
Not every night, no, but it wouldn’t be impossible and depends on the cut of meat. That is especially true if you had noted the quote I included from your link: “the program is designed to supplement participants’ own grocery money. Indeed, about 75% of SNAP beneficiaries also tap their own funds to stock their pantries.”

The point is that SNAP is a lot of money, considering what it is meant to be.
All the CEO proved is that not everyone has a lifestyle that allows for shopping around and cooking each meal from their basic ingredients. Some people spend that time commuting between home and job, job and job, school and job…you get the drift.
:rotfl: The bill requires able-bodied adults without defendants work a minimum of 20 hours per week. That’s an awful lot of commuting for someone on SNAP. I get the point that you drifted into the ridiculous. 😛
 
Or if you are vegetarian you could get more than 10 pounds of carrots and bananas.

We’re doing spaghetti tonight. That runs us maybe $6 or so, and if you break it down to the individual, that’s at least 5 meals. We always have leftovers and I might get 2 or 3 extra meals out of it for myself.

I just don’t think people understand how cheap food is, or can be when you aren’t eating high end rich people food.
Not even eating “rich people food” but eating convenient, processed or fast food/takeout food. The food we make ourselves from fresh ingredients we buy is usually better and more nutricious and cheaper than the convenience foods.

In order to pay some bills I once took a job delivering pizzas for a few months. It was an eye-opener. The folks from the nicer neighborhoods rarely ordered pizza. I found that the main customers were folks living in low-income areas. They would pay relatively large sums of money for a couple of pizzas that frankly were not that good. The food cost more because of delivery, etc. I’m sure that there were reasons why they got takeout - it is easy and you don’t need to go shopping or cook. I’m sure some are also too tired to cook after getting home from work. For the money they spent on pizza, they could have bought healthier food and saved money. I realize that education might be a factor here - some may not know how to cook.

Ishii
 
If they are spending that much time working they should be able to pay for their own food.

Steak dinner every night is easily doable on the SNAP challenge. It obviously won’t be a 3 pound prime steak.

Here, we can do the math.
Breakfast- eggs and toast- 35 cents.
2nd breakfast- banana- 15 cents
Snack- granola bar 25 cents
Lunch- bologna sandwich and corn chips- 50 cents
Snack- granola bar- 25 cents
Supper- 1/2 pound select ribeye-$2 + 2 cans of vegetables- $1

Total- $4.50

Total time spent cooking-10 minutes.

We didn’t even get to the really cheap foods or stuff you have to cook.
Rib-eye?? Man, you have expensive tastes. We only get rib-eye, if its a good BOGO deal. 🙂
 
Rib-eye?? Man, you have expensive tastes. We only get rib-eye, if its a good BOGO deal. 🙂
It’s a regular special here at $4/lb. It’s only select grade though, but is very good if you prepare it well. A little bacon grease or butter in the pan helps.

Food is the cheapest it has ever been. 150 years ago people would spend half their time working for their food. Nowadays most people can earn their day’s food with 10-15 minutes of work. Of course, if they have luxurious tastes or like to have people wait on them as if they are royalty, they can spend their earnings from an extra 15-20 minutes for that regal effect.

People just don’t realize how good we have it, all of us, who live today in America. Our poor live better than kings did a few centuries ago.
 
It’s a regular special here at $4/lb. It’s only select grade though, but is very good if you prepare it well. A little bacon grease or butter in the pan helps.

Food is the cheapest it has ever been. 150 years ago people would spend half their time working for their food. Nowadays most people can earn their day’s food with 10-15 minutes of work. Of course, if they have luxurious tastes or like to have people wait on them as if they are royalty, they can spend their earnings from an extra 15-20 minutes for that regal effect.

People just don’t realize how good we have it, all of us, who live today in America. Our poor live better than kings did a few centuries ago.
They have more modern appliances, conveniences, automobiles, I-phones, flat screen TV’s, etc. And one of the problems is also obesity. What’s needed is not more handouts.

Ishii
 
My aunt was on food stamps when she was going through a super tough time. She describes how embarrassing it was for her and she would only go to the store closing to closing time on weekdays.

I’d hate to think where she’d be now if she didn’t have food stamps to help her during that difficult time.
 
I find it funny that you use this quote to buttress your position, because as the author says, receipts often climb after tax cuts (but not always) but not necessarily because of them. Now, as to tax cuts affecting GDP growth, they can affect GDP growth and they also could not. You never answered my question on whether you assume the Ricardian Equivalence theorem holds, so are you assuming that the theory holds?
I went back a few posts and couldn’t find a reference to “Ricardian Equivalence theorem.” Did you really ask me that or is this the part of the thread now where Stinkcat tries to impress everyone with his knowledge of economics theories?
I think what you are trying to say is Sowell confirms your biases, so therefore his education is top notch. If someone dares question your beliefs then their education is suspect.
Not at all. I never said anyone’s education is “suspect” - I said that a mere advanced degree does not make someone right on an issue. Don’t put words in my mouth, man.
Code:
But that is not what you said, you said that tax cuts caused higher tax revenue.  So now are you changing your tune and saying that tax cuts do not cause higher revenue?
Work with me here, Stinkcat. I said that increased revenue due to population growth does not preclude increased revenue due to tax cuts. i.e. it could be a variety of factors that increase revenue, not only one. But if its true that tax cuts and other factors such as population increase revenue, it is still correct to say that tax cuts increase revenue.
What I said was that both parties were big government parties. That is something that nobody can dispute. Besides if my jokes were funny would I be an academic?
Its disputable - there are instances where the Republican party is more in favor of small government than the Democrat party is and has accomplished reforms - just look at what Republicans governors have done at the state level, for instance, compared to Democrat governors. Look at what Scott Walker had done in Wisconsin. Indeed there are big differences between the parties on important issues. You have in other threads defended support for 3rd party candidates based on the two parties being the same. Of course they aren’t the same. Your inability or refusal to admit that makes me inclined to question your judgement and critical thinking ability overall.
You have never read the JPE have you?
No, I have not.
But if you believe that Sowell is right, then you must believe that Mankiw is wrong. What is the flaw in Mankiw’s analysis? Or did you just read Sowell’s piece, find that it fit your preconceived notions and then figure you have no need to read more?
I haven’t really read much from Mankiw. He’s the guy who served under Bush, right?
I think if you want to be committed to the truth you need to ask a few more questions and not just stop when someone tells you something you want to here.
I would be willing to bet that I’m just as open to the truth as you are.

Ishii
 
Not even eating “rich people food” but eating convenient, processed or fast food/takeout food. The food we make ourselves from fresh ingredients we buy is usually better and more nutricious and cheaper than the convenience foods.

In order to pay some bills I once took a job delivering pizzas for a few months. It was an eye-opener. The folks from the nicer neighborhoods rarely ordered pizza. I found that the main customers were folks living in low-income areas. They would pay relatively large sums of money for a couple of pizzas that frankly were not that good. The food cost more because of delivery, etc. I’m sure that there were reasons why they got takeout - it is easy and you don’t need to go shopping or cook. I’m sure some are also too tired to cook after getting home from work. For the money they spent on pizza, they could have bought healthier food and saved money. I realize that education might be a factor here - some may not know how to cook.

Ishii
Maybe first time applicants for SNAP should be given a basic cookbook and a schedule that aid is only for a limited time and it will be phased out after a reasonable period to get on their own feet. Many other programs should be loans that have to be paid back. VERY FEW people should be on lifetime aid programs.
 
I went back a few posts and couldn’t find a reference to “Ricardian Equivalence theorem.” Did you really ask me that or is this the part of the thread now where Stinkcat tries to impress everyone with his knowledge of economics theories?
See post 64 of the “House approves bill with deep food stamp spending cuts” thread. You didn’t answer the question there either. But you are arguing that tax cuts cause economic growth, so therefore you are holding yourself out as someone knowledgeable in economics, so what I am asking is not something that should be too advanced for someone who knows economics.
Not at all. I never said anyone’s education is “suspect” - I said that a mere advanced degree does not make someone right on an issue. Don’t put words in my mouth, man.
So if education does not matter, why did you bring up Sowell’s education?
Work with me here, Stinkcat. I said that increased revenue due to population growth does not preclude increased revenue due to tax cuts. i.e. it could be a variety of factors that increase revenue, not only one. But if its true that tax cuts and other factors such as population increase revenue, it is still correct to say that tax cuts increase revenue.
It could also be that the tax cut effect drives down revenue and the population growth effect drives up revenue. Since there are many possible effects, how do you establish that your view of the effects is right? We agree that correlation does not prove causation so you need more than a correlation to prove causality. What do you have besides correlation?
Its disputable - there are instances where the Republican party is more in favor of small government than the Democrat party is and has accomplished reforms - just look at what Republicans governors have done at the state level, for instance, compared to Democrat governors. Look at what Scott Walker had done in Wisconsin. Indeed there are big differences between the parties on important issues. You have in other threads defended support for 3rd party candidates based on the two parties being the same. Of course they aren’t the same. Your inability or refusal to admit that makes me inclined to question your judgement and critical thinking ability overall.
So if one democrat is against abortion then the democratic party is against abortion? The fact is at the federal level that republicans have never created a smaller government.
No, I have not.
You have never read the JPE but you think Sowell can get his paper published there?
I haven’t really read much from Mankiw. He’s the guy who served under Bush, right?
In other words, you read one piece on tax cuts and tax revenues and that makes you an expert? Perhaps you ought to be more diligent in your study of economics before you make pronouncements.
 
Code:
See post 64 of the "House approves bill with deep food stamp spending cuts" thread.  You didn't answer the question there either.  But you are arguing that tax cuts cause economic growth, so therefore you are holding yourself out as someone knowledgeable in economics, so what I am asking is not something that should be too advanced for someone who knows economics.
You’re right - I stand corrected. So this will be the second time I don’t answer your question about “Ricardian theory”.
So if education does not matter, why did you bring up Sowell’s education?
I didn’t say education doesn’t matter. However, education alone does not matter. For example, Stinkcat and Thomas (“Tom”) Sowell might both have PhD’s in economics - but Thomas Sowell’s views will carry much more weight than Stinkcat’s.
It could also be that the tax cut effect drives down revenue and the population growth effect drives up revenue. Since there are many possible effects, how do you establish that your view of the effects is right? We agree that correlation does not prove causation so you need more than a correlation to prove causality. What do you have besides correlation?
All I said that revenue increases do not have to be exclusive to tax cuts - there could be other factors as well. That does not speak to correlation vs. causation question, it merely states that revenue increases could be a function of a variety of factors. One factor does not necessarily cancel out the other.
So if one democrat is against abortion then the democratic party is against abortion? The fact is at the federal level that republicans have never created a smaller government.
You’re avoiding the question - you said that both parties are big government parties. Yet at the state level there are governors like Scott in Wisconsin who have made reforms. Seems to me you like to push the false narrative that Republicans are the same as Democrats on spending. Are you now ready to retract your statement?
Code:
You have never read the JPE but you think Sowell can get his paper published there?
I said it might have the rigor necessary for publication. I was merely pointing out that what you were claiming was not a fact, but your opinion.
In other words, you read one piece on tax cuts and tax revenues and that makes you an expert? Perhaps you ought to be more diligent in your study of economics before you make pronouncements.
What makes you think I’ve read only one piece on tax cuts and revenues? When did I say I was an expert? I will leave the expertise to Thomas Sowell - he’s brilliant.

Ishii
 
You’re right - I stand corrected. So this will be the second time I don’t answer your question about “Ricardian theory”.
I think you have made it quite clear that you don’t understand the economics of taxation and GDP growth. So if I were you I wouldn’t waste my time trying to dig yourself out of this one.
I didn’t say education doesn’t matter. However, education alone does not matter. For example, Stinkcat and Thomas (“Tom”) Sowell might both have PhD’s in economics - but Thomas Sowell’s views will carry much more weight than Stinkcat’s.
Of course I never raised the issue of my education, you asked me what makes me qualified to judge Tom’s work. Personally I think my education is irrelevant to the issue, the real question is whether tax cuts cause revenue increases and I have showed data and cited articles showing the opposite. You have only cited one article by Thomas Sowell. That is the extent of your argument.
All I said that revenue increases do not have to be exclusive to tax cuts - there could be other factors as well. That does not speak to correlation vs. causation question, it merely states that revenue increases could be a function of a variety of factors. One factor does not necessarily cancel out the other.
Do tax cuts cause revenue to be higher or lower or both or is the answer that it depends?
You’re avoiding the question - you said that both parties are big government parties. Yet at the state level there are governors like Scott in Wisconsin who have made reforms. Seems to me you like to push the false narrative that Republicans are the same as Democrats on spending. Are you now ready to retract your statement?
Actually, from the data I look at, it appears that Scott Walker cut government spending by about $100 at most from a $28 billion budget. That does not appear to be someone who is in favor of smaller government to me.
I said it might have the rigor necessary for publication. I was merely pointing out that what you were claiming was not a fact, but your opinion.
Yes, and the moon might be made out of green cheese.
What makes you think I’ve read only one piece on tax cuts and revenues? When did I say I was an expert? I will leave the expertise to Thomas Sowell - he’s brilliant.
What other research have you read on tax cuts and revenues because Tom is the only bit of support that you have provided. Have you read any contrary views?
 
It’s a regular special here at $4/lb. It’s only select grade though, but is very good if you prepare it well. A little bacon grease or butter in the pan helps.

Food is the cheapest it has ever been. 150 years ago people would spend half their time working for their food. Nowadays most people can earn their day’s food with 10-15 minutes of work. Of course, if they have luxurious tastes or like to have people wait on them as if they are royalty, they can spend their earnings from an extra 15-20 minutes for that regal effect.

People just don’t realize how good we have it, all of us, who live today in America. Our poor live better than kings did a few centuries ago.
I don’t know where you live, but food is not the cheap. It used to be, but not anymore. Where do you live?
 
I don’t know where you live, but food is not the cheap. It used to be, but not anymore. Where do you live?
I can’t speak for white sheep, but I live in Orange County, CA…not a cheap area. My wife and I both agree that SNAP levels are very generous.
 
I think you have made it quite clear that you don’t understand the economics of taxation and GDP growth. So if I were you I wouldn’t waste my time trying to dig yourself out of this one.
Just because I don’t comment on an esoteric economic theory, and because you disagree with me, you say I don’t understand economics. That sounds very arrogant.
Of course I never raised the issue of my education, you asked me what makes me qualified to judge Tom’s work. Personally I think my education is irrelevant to the issue, the real question is whether tax cuts cause revenue increases and I have showed data and cited articles showing the opposite. You have only cited one article by Thomas Sowell. That is the extent of your argument.
And I have cited four concrete examples where cutting taxes resulted in higher revenue. You obviously disagree with me. But you also disagree with Thomas Sowell. Does “Tom” Sowell also not understand economics?
Do tax cuts cause revenue to be higher or lower or both or is the answer that it depends?
I agree with Thomas Sowell that they cause higher tax revenue. But I also acknowledge that other factors could also increase revenue. I think I have repeated this three times. Not sure how tax cuts could both increase and decrease overall revenue at the same time. (and you accuse me of not understanding economics).
Actually, from the data I look at, it appears that Scott Walker cut government spending by about $100 at most from a $28 billion budget. That does not appear to be someone who is in favor of smaller government to me.
You are accusing governor Walker of not accomplishing much (which I disagree with). One would think 3rd party types would be perfectly happy with total lack of progress - when one considers that 3rd party candidates out there have failed to change anything. But of course Walker has reigned in the unions. He’s a good conservative who believes in small government - as do other GOP governors. The problem with the “true believers” is that they somehow expect everything to change overnight. And when there are victories for conservatism, they find ways to belittle them. Scott Walker faced a recall for sticking to his conservative principles. To say he is not a true conservative because he hasn’t finished what he set out to do is very unfair. Unfortunately, unfair, disingenuous tactics are common among some posters here.
What other research have you read on tax cuts and revenues because Tom is the only bit of support that you have provided. Have you read any contrary views?
Yes. Of course there are contrary views worthy of checking out. And I might even be more likely to entertain such views - after this back and forth. No one should be so rigid that they don’t entertain views other than their own. I will say this: I am more interested in what is going on now with Obamacare, size of govt, social issues, etc. than if tax cuts do or don’t raise revenue.
 
Just because I don’t comment on an esoteric economic theory, and because you disagree with me, you say I don’t understand economics. That sounds very arrogant.
You are the one making claims which involve economic theory, yet you don’t want to defend your claims. You haven’t said anything that suggests that you understand economics. The best you can do is say: Tom said it, I believe it, that settles it.
And I have cited four concrete examples where cutting taxes resulted in higher revenue. You obviously disagree with me. But you also disagree with Thomas Sowell. Does “Tom” Sowell also not understand economics?
What you provided was a correlation, from cherry picked data. And some of the data actually shows the opposite of what you claim. For example, in 2002 and 2003 income tax receipts fell, which is the opposite of what you claim. But you admit that you cannot in any way prove that it was the income tax that caused the higher income tax revenue because inflation and population growth are also factors.

I would say that in general Tom understands economics, but in this particular instance he is being sloppy. Part of this is due to his audience, he is not publishing for professional economists, but for an audience who is likely to buy into the idea that tax cuts produce more revenue anyway, so they are going to cut him a lot of slack. Professional economists would roast him alive if he tried to pass off that claim like he did in the essay.
I agree with Thomas Sowell that they cause higher tax revenue. But I also acknowledge that other factors could also increase revenue. I think I have repeated this three times. Not sure how tax cuts could both increase and decrease overall revenue at the same time. (and you accuse me of not understanding economics).
So, did the tax cuts cause increased revenue in 2002 and 2003?
You are accusing governor Walker of not accomplishing much (which I disagree with). One would think 3rd party types would be perfectly happy with total lack of progress - when one considers that 3rd party candidates out there have failed to change anything. But of course Walker has reigned in the unions. He’s a good conservative who believes in small government - as do other GOP governors. The problem with the “true believers” is that they somehow expect everything to change overnight. And when there are victories for conservatism, they find ways to belittle them. Scott Walker faced a recall for sticking to his conservative principles. To say he is not a true conservative because he hasn’t finished what he set out to do is very unfair. Unfortunately, unfair, disingenuous tactics are common among some posters here.
In 2011, Wisconsin State Spending was $28.9 billion, while in 2012 it fell to $28.8 billion, a change of 3 tenths of one percent. To complain about big government and make a minuscule change in spending are not the marks of someone who believes in small government. I am just reporting the facts, how is reporting the facts being unfair?
Yes. Of course there are contrary views worthy of checking out. And I might even be more likely to entertain such views - after this back and forth. No one should be so rigid that they don’t entertain views other than their own. I will say this: I am more interested in what is going on now with Obamacare, size of govt, social issues, etc. than if tax cuts do or don’t raise revenue.
If you are not interesting in whether tax cuts raise or don’t raise revenue then why do you persist in claiming that they do?
 
You are the one making claims which involve economic theory, yet you don’t want to defend your claims. You haven’t said anything that suggests that you understand economics. The best you can do is say: Tom said it, I believe it, that settles it.
And you are saying, “I disagree, therefore you are ignorant.” Which is an arrogant thing to do.
What you provided was a correlation, from cherry picked data. And some of the data actually shows the opposite of what you claim. For example, in 2002 and 2003 income tax receipts fell, which is the opposite of what you claim. But you admit that you cannot in any way prove that it was the income tax that caused the higher income tax revenue because inflation and population growth are also factors.
You think its correlation. Also, I said that inflation and population growth could be factors along with tax cuts.
I would say that in general Tom understands economics, but in this particular instance he is being sloppy. Part of this is due to his audience, he is not publishing for professional economists, but for an audience who is likely to buy into the idea that tax cuts produce more revenue anyway, so they are going to cut him a lot of slack. Professional economists would roast him alive if he tried to pass off that claim like he did in the essay.
How kind of you to admit that Sowell understands economics “in general.” He is a giant. The only one trying to roast him alive (unsuccessfully) is you.
So, did the tax cuts cause increased revenue in 2002 and 2003?
Well for starters, the tax cut in 2003 wouldn’t have caused increased revenue in 2002.
In 2011, Wisconsin State Spending was $28.9 billion, while in 2012 it fell to $28.8 billion, a change of 3 tenths of one percent. To complain about big government and make a minuscule change in spending are not the marks of someone who believes in small government. I am just reporting the facts, how is reporting the facts being unfair?
You don’t understand politics. You can’t change in one year or even five years what liberals took decades to institute. And if Scott Walker was some kind of charlatan who secretly really wants big government then why does the left - i.e. big government folks - hate him so much and try to oust him from office in a recall election? As I mentioned, even good conservatives can’t change things overnight. He took on the public sector unions. Again, the problem with the “true believers” is that if a president or governor doesn’t try to institute drastic “small government” overnight - which would cause a huge backlash - then they insist the governor is secretly “big government.” As I said before, such a view is disingenuous and unfair. You can stick with the failed 3rd party guys, but I prefer to support true conservatives like Walker. I believe his next initiative is to reform the state’s food stamp program - make recipients work for it.
If you are not interesting in whether tax cuts raise or don’t raise revenue then why do you persist in claiming that they do?
I didn’t say I wasn’t interested - I said I was more interested in the issues we’re facing now - like Obamacare, size of government, social issues, etc.
 
And you are saying, “I disagree, therefore you are ignorant.” Which is an arrogant thing to do.
No, you are making a claim and you refuse to defend the claim, you claim tax cuts affect economic growth. Well the truth is that economic theory can go either way, tax cuts could increase economic growth or they could not increase economic growth depending on the situation. Am I supposed to just believe you that tax cuts increase economic growth?
You think its correlation. Also, I said that inflation and population growth could be factors along with tax cuts.
And you think that it is causation. The correlation is the same either way, causal relationships are correlated with each other. Eating more will cause weight gain, it will also be correlated with weight gain. On the other hand, a famous economist showed an example where beer consumption was negatively correlated with child mortality. But only one who drank too much beer would believe that more beer consumption causes lower child mortality. In your claim, you at best have a correlation, which would be weakened by the fact that tax revenues also go up when tax rates go up as well. You never proved causation.
How kind of you to admit that Sowell understands economics “in general.” He is a giant. The only one trying to roast him alive (unsuccessfully) is you.
Are you saying that Tom is infallible? Is he immune from sloppy work?
Well for starters, the tax cut in 2003 wouldn’t have caused increased revenue in 2002.
Taxes were cut in 2001. Retroactive to January 1, so why did tax revenues go down in 2002? And also they were lower in 2001 than they were in 2000. So how can tax cuts cause more revenue when the data shows the opposite?
You don’t understand politics. You can’t change in one year or even five years what liberals took decades to institute. And if Scott Walker was some kind of charlatan who secretly really wants big government then why does the left - i.e. big government folks - hate him so much and try to oust him from office in a recall election? As I mentioned, even good conservatives can’t change things overnight. He took on the public sector unions. Again, the problem with the “true believers” is that if a president or governor doesn’t try to institute drastic “small government” overnight - which would cause a huge backlash - then they insist the governor is secretly “big government.” As I said before, such a view is disingenuous and unfair. You can stick with the failed 3rd party guys, but I prefer to support true conservatives like Walker. I believe his next initiative is to reform the state’s food stamp program - make recipients work for it.
So there are secret “true conservatives” that really believe in small government but need to hide it from everyone by keeping the size of government big?
I didn’t say I wasn’t interested - I said I was more interested in the issues we’re facing now - like Obamacare, size of government, social issues, etc.
I would suggest you should not make claims about things in which you don’t understand. Your only evidence is one essay by Thomas Sowell, yet you cannot even articulate arguments by other conservatives who argue the opposite.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top