US fast-food workers staging nationwide strike

[Brendan]

Minimum wage is not a living wage. It is absolute poverty.

Really? I worked several minimum wage jobs through high school and early college. I would not claim that I was in poverty

Then again, all I considered those jobs for were to build skills, they were not intended by me nor my employer as careers.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The skilled nursing assistants at the hospital don’t even make $12/hour

If the nonskilled laborer succeed in getting their $12/hour, not only will the dollar menu no longer be a dollar menu, but the skilled laborers will get an increase in pay as well, which will increase the cost to consumers for their services. The only thing all this will accomplish is that everyone will get a bit more pay in pay tiers in proportion, prices of goods and services will increase by the same proportion, and the unskilled laborers will still be on the bottom of the pay totem pole - in proportion to the basic level of labor they provide.

This is what people don’t get. It’s still the MINIMUM wage now matter how much the pay is!

 

[PaulinVA]

I have no idea what a fast food clerk is worth and whether or not they are underpaid. But both sides of the argument should not make unverifiable factual claims.

Well, I agree with that. However, since fast food franchisees are normally not public companies, I’m not sure the figures are available.

BUT, the question remains, if I can fill all of my shifts with acceptable people for $8.50, why should I pay $15?

Here in my county the courts pay Deputy Court Clerks $16.10 an hour. Do you think a McDonald’s worker is only a dollar an hour away from that skill set?

 

[stinkcat_14]

Well, I agree with that. However, since fast food franchisees are normally not public companies, I’m not sure the figures are available.

BUT, the question remains, if I can fill all of my shifts with acceptable people for $8.50, why should I pay $15?

There is a big difference between saying I cannot afford to pay $15 an hour and saying I am too cheap to pay $15 an hour. There is a question of whether it is moral and ethical to pay as little as I can get away with.

Here in my county the courts pay Deputy Court Clerks $16.10 an hour. Do you think a McDonald’s worker is only a dollar an hour away from that skill set?

Perhaps the Deputy Court Clerks are overpaid? For the record, I have not said that McDonalds workers are underpaid, but I think it is important to keep factual claims based on facts.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

No, the burden is on the person making the claim. The claim was that McDonalds franchisees cannot afford to pay $15 per hour. That is an empirical question and one that can be proven with data, and of course nobody should be making factual claims without the ability to back it up.

Even if a particular franchise decided to pay more than $15/hr it would still not help the people who are earning minimum wage. All that would happen is that the people who are currently earning 12-15 an hour now would see fast food work as a viable job and would compete for the positions. The people currently working minimum wage are there for a reason - usually because they aren’t very good workers - and they would be replaced with more experienced workers who present a better value.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Even if a particular franchise decided to pay more than $15/hr it would still not help the people who are earning minimum wage. All that would happen is that the people who are currently earning 12-15 an hour now would see fast food work as a viable job and would compete for the positions.

It is certainly true that at a higher wage rate, more people are likely to be enticed into the labor market. Now, it is an open question as to whether the McDonalds franchisees would fire their current workers and hire new workers.

The people currently working minimum wage are there for a reason - usually because they aren’t very good workers - and they would be replaced with more experienced workers who present a better value.

Or that they have little experience in the job market and are looking to gain some experience. Or they could be skilled workers looking to pick up some extra pocket change part time.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I think the burden is on the side that says there are excess profits from operating a fast food franchise, and those excess profits justify paying the unskilled help more than they are worth.

Read the linked wage/salary report for 2012 and tell me that a fast food clerk has commensurate skills as the jobs listed in the $12-$15 an hour range.

nonprofitroundtable.org/storage/documents/Ultimate_Salary_Guide_for_Washington_DC.pdf

Exactly.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Exactly.

You are saying that people who make claims should not have to back them up?

 

[rfournier103]

I think the issue here is that these workers want to organize. That is their right under the National Labor Ralations Act of 1935. It is ILLEGAL to fire them for attempting to form or join a union.

I personally know several people who wanted to join the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and were fired by their employer. This employer was later forced by a court order to rehire them and pay them back-wages.

These workers at McDonalds have a right to demonstrate and this walkout of theirs must be a last-resort because their employer refuses to collectively bargain with them. They can demand whatever they want, but does that mean they will get it? No. In a perfect world, they will negotiate in good faith, and reach an agreement in regerds to wages, working conditions, and hours.

To the poster who spoke of Reagan firing the Air Traffic Controllers… I would think these people are a little different than the “striking” fast food workers. (see also the Boston Police Strike of 1919). Almost all essential public employees (police, fire, ems, air traffic controllers, etc…) are prohibited by law from striking, and their unions know this. In return for these unions agreeing not to strike, doesn’t the government have an obligation to keep dialogue and cooperation with their representitives ongoing?

Anyway… the goals of the Labor Movement have always been FAIR wages, safe working conditions, and equitable treatment at the hands of management. Is that too much to ask? Labor wants to COOPERATE with management. In MY workplace, our contract is always referred to as “The Agreement”. Anyone who knows anything about Labor knows that the worker needs the employer far more than the employer needs the worker, but human and CHRISTIAN decency demand that everyone work together for the benefit of ALL.

The fact is that wages have NOT kept up with the cost of living. I do not think that a “burger-flipper” should be paid what brain-surgeon is paid; and we all can’t be brain-surgeons. But I DO think that the earning-power of a dollar is NOT what it used to be. One dollar does not buy as much as it used to. These workers have the right to organize if 50%+1 vote to. That is the law.

There are many union haters out there, just as there are many Catholic haters out there. I have worked as a non-union electrician before joining the IBEW, and all of you would be amazed at the difference in attitudes towards safety between the two sides. Forget the difference in wages… I can personally attest to a difference in safety.

There are a million things I can say on this topic, but I will leave this… This is the Labor Day statement of the USCCB. Please read it. Thank you.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/labor-employment/labor-day-statement-2013.cfm

 

[adawgj]

Originally Posted by Cricket2 View Post
Minimum wage is not a living wage. It is absolute poverty.

Not really,

 

[PaulinVA]

Another interesting article:

businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-02/this-is-what-would-happen-if-fast-food-workers-got-raises

 

[Mickey_Finn]

No it isn’t. People risk their lives to come be in poverty in this country because it’s a heck of a step up from real poverty.

Dawnia we are talking about the United States not the third world. So, if you’ll look at this link. We’ll be on the same page.

remappingdebate.org/map-data-tool/individual-minimum-wage-versus-family-poverty-threshold

 

[Cricket2]

I think the issue here is that these workers want to organize. That is their right under the National Labor Ralations Act of 1935. It is ILLEGAL to fire them for attempting to form or join a union.

I personally know several people who wanted to join the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and were fired by their employer. This employer was later forced by a court order to rehire them and pay them back-wages.

These workers at McDonalds have a right to demonstrate and this walkout of theirs must be a last-resort because their employer refuses to collectively bargain with them. They can demand whatever they want, but does that mean they will get it? No. In a perfect world, they will negotiate in good faith, and reach an agreement in regerds to wages, working conditions, and hours.

To the poster who spoke of Reagan firing the Air Traffic Controllers… I would think these people are a little different than the “striking” fast food workers. (see also the Boston Police Strike of 1919). Almost all essential public employees (police, fire, ems, air traffic controllers, etc…) are prohibited by law from striking, and their unions know this. In return for these unions agreeing not to strike, doesn’t the government have an obligation to keep dialogue and cooperation with their representitives ongoing?

Anyway… the goals of the Labor Movement have always been FAIR wages, safe working conditions, and equitable treatment at the hands of management. Is that too much to ask? Labor wants to COOPERATE with management. In MY workplace, our contract is always referred to as “The Agreement”. Anyone who knows anything about Labor knows that the worker needs the employer far more than the employer needs the worker, but human and CHRISTIAN decency demand that everyone work together for the benefit of ALL.

The fact is that wages have NOT kept up with the cost of living. I do not think that a “burger-flipper” should be paid what brain-surgeon is paid; and we all can’t be brain-surgeons. But I DO think that the earning-power of a dollar is NOT what it used to be. One dollar does not buy as much as it used to. These workers have the right to organize if 50%+1 vote to. That is the law.

There are many union haters out there, just as there are many Catholic haters out there. I have worked as a non-union electrician before joining the IBEW, and all of you would be amazed at the difference in attitudes towards safety between the two sides. Forget the difference in wages… I can personally attest to a difference in safety.

There are a million things I can say on this topic, but I will leave this… This is the Labor Day statement of the USCCB. Please read it. Thank you.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/labor-employment/labor-day-statement-2013.cfm

I agree with you. (I wrote the post on the fired Air Traffic Controllers.) I personally think they had run out of options. No one was listening to what they had to say or to their concerns.

My brother is a member of a Union where he works. They do a great deal to make sure people are payed adequately for what they do, and certainly for safety at the work place. I totally believe in unions, as often they are the only reason people have any power at all regarding safe and fair working conditions.

Yes we have much less spending power now. You get less for more all the time. I will never believe in anything but a living wage for all people. This garbage of paying people so little that they can’t possibly do more than live in a run down apartment building, can never own a home or even a car is rubbish.

One place I worked for advised the staff in a meeting that they were to ignore any attempts by a union that was in the area. What a lot of folks didn’t realize is that this is illegal and I told them so. Still the company managed to keep a union from forming and we continued to be payed below poverty wages for the work done.

In my own thinking a strong, moral nation will never accept the notion that people don’t deserve to be payed a sufficient amount to live on, and I don’t mean by the skin of their teeth. This planet was given to us by God for all of us to enjoy and benefit from. Not just a handful healthy enough, strong enough or rich enough to make all the gains and trickle down what is left to the remaining population.

 

[Cricket2]

Exactly.

Is it about skills or living? Even if what most people would consider an easy job is the only job I can get or can do, why should I have to be forced into poverty? Why has it never been possible for this country or any nation for that matter to pay people a sufficient amount to live on instead of barely scratch by?

Here is a challenge: Restrict your self to $1,200/mo wages for the next year and see if you like it and how you do. (Even if you have a family of 4)

 

[ProVobis]

Here is a challenge: Restrict your self to $1,200/mo wages for the next year and see if you like it and how you do. (Even if you have a family of 4)

Suppose you were the employer who didn’t have more than $1,200 worth of business on top of other costs (rent, supplies, etc.). Should you close the place?

 

[Dawnia]

Dawnia we are talking about the United States not the third world. So, if you’ll look at this link. We’ll be on the same page.

remappingdebate.org/map-data-tool/individual-minimum-wage-versus-family-poverty-threshold

How about you first learn what absolute poverty really is and then we’ll be on the same page.

Let me help…

Extreme poverty, absolute poverty, or abject poverty is stated as “a condition characterized by severe deprivation of basic human needs, including food, safe drinking water, sanitation facilities, health, shelter, education and information.

No one in the US is severely deprived of these basic needs unless they so choose not to use the resources made available to them. If a charity doesn’t provide these services, our government does.

 

[Holly3278]

I do support a just wage but I think that $15 an hour is a little excessive for a worker at McDonald’s unless you live in New York or some place where rent is excessively high.

 

[jediliz]

fast food is NOT meant to be a full time career (unless you are in management). it is meant to be a job to get job experience and earn money while going to college or MAYBE a supplemental income until the other breadwinner gets a new job.

$15 an hour is ridiculous.

 

[estesbob]

Is it about skills or living? Even if what most people would consider an easy job is the only job I can get or can do, why should I have to be forced into poverty? Why has it never been possible for this country or any nation for that matter to pay people a sufficient amount to live on instead of barely scratch by?

Here is a challenge: Restrict your self to $1,200/mo wages for the next year and see if you like it and how you do. (Even if you have a family of 4)

Who forced you into poverty ?

 

[Cricket2]

Oh, so the poor in this country don’t have food? The don’t have access to water? I thought that was what SNAP is for? They are denied access to healthcare? I though it was illegal for hospitals to refuse medical care? They are denied housing? Don’t we have government housing programs? Poor people are not allowed to go to public school?

What about all the other government programs? TANF? WIC? Pell Grants? Home heating assistance?

Does that mean that the people I see in Wal-Mart buying $300 worth of groceries holding a brand new I Phone aren’t really poor?

Like I said, people in this country don’t know what absolute poverty is. Minimum wage is not absolute poverty. Go to a third world country and you will see what absolute poverty is.

There are many poor who can’t get to food, despite many programs. My sisters Food Stamp amount is $15/month. If she did not have help from my dad she would run out of food within the first week of the month. Food banks are running out of food to supply for the growing number of families living on the streets. So ya, people in this country go without food everyday.

It is illegal for hospitals to turn people down, but it happens. If you are medically indigent there is usually one hospital for the entire city that sees ALL the uninsured. The average wait to see a doctor for the first time is 6-8 weeks. The average wait in the waiting room is 4 hours or more, and if they run out of time they send you home. Been there. Did it for 7 years. Just because something is illegal does not mean it never happens.

There are waiting lists for housing, the first time you apply for help through Social Security it is standard to be denied and then you have to wait 6 months to apply again. It took my sister over two years, while deathly ill and unemployed to get help. If she didn’t have family she would have died or at best lived on the street.

No one said they could not go to public school. But if your hungry, cold, sick and just plain worn out you may not give a big darn if you do or don’t.

The most you get for home heating assistance is one payment for the year and it does not cover your full payment. It does not even cover half of the payment.

As far as Wal-Mart: It is about the only place a lot of people can shop, very few every get enough food assistance to buy that much food…and who are you to determine if they are poor or rich?

It is disturbing to me that so many people think poverty is not an issue in this country. My community used to be upper-middle income. Now it is turning into a ghetto because everyone had to abandon their homes because their jobs were given away to other countries. Those of us that remain can barely pay our basic bills and buy food. We get our clothes from the dollar store and yard sales. We are among the dead middle class with no hope for retirement, or basic necessities.

As for the programs out there, most of them take weeks to prove you are in need and then everything is rationed. Sure it helps some, and sure there are those who abuse it, but that does not mean there are people going without food. I can count at least 6 families in my own block were that is true. No one around here has that much to even help them, and local food bank at the Church usually is emptied by the end of one week. Want to donate some?