US should return stolen land to Indian tribes, says United Nations

[OrdinaryMelkite]

As a direct descendant of Adam, I plan on puting a condo back in Eden at the first chance I get.

:bounce::whacky:

 

[He_Man]

:bounce::whacky:

Also, pets are fine - no snakes however.

 

[Jerry_Miah]

No, I am saying that there is no one alive that actually had land taken from them when these treaties were broken.

The original owners are gone. There is no justice in attempting to give land back to people that never owned it to begin with.

Good idea. Show me a single individual that suffered directly the genocide that was attempted centuries ago.

By your definition, Germany didn’t have to pay reparations to the people killed in the Holocaust because they were already dead.

Every living Native American is directly affected by the genocide. They don’t live in their native lands where they would be living if not for the genocide. Most of them don’t speak their native language because of the genocide. Most of them don’t have their religion because of the genocide. All of them grew up with parents and grandparents (besides the ones who were taken away from their parents) who were both results of and victims of the genocide. Are you aware that some laws forbidding the practice of Native American religion were not overturned until the 1980s?

Let’s stop with the apologies for genocide. Let’s work for justice.

 

[SamH]

Wait, I thought it wasn’t the UN, but one random dude’s opinion?

I have a hard time keeping straight whether we should ignore the notion or heed it, depending on the poster.

Time of day seems to be as big of variable as poster.

 

[SamH]

By your definition, Germany didn’t have to pay reparations to the people killed in the Holocaust because they were already dead.

.

You might want to read a history a book.

 

[Dale_M]

Wait, I thought it wasn’t the UN, but one random dude’s opinion?

I have a hard time keeping straight whether we should ignore the notion or heed it, depending on the poster.

It isn’t some random dude, but a special rapporteur. His role is similar to that of a person appointed by the US Congress to investigate an issue and make recommendations.

The suggestions of the investigator are not necessarily the position of US Congress. Similarly, the opinions of a special rapporteur are not the position of the UN.

 

[vz71]

By your definition, Germany didn’t have to pay reparations to the people killed in the Holocaust because they were already dead.

Please name a single dead person Germany paid back.

Every living Native American is directly affected by the genocide.

First, if it were genocide, there wouldn’t be descendents.
Second, no single thing today can be directly tied to the treaty violations.

They don’t live in their native lands where they would be living if not for the genocide.

I don’t live where I did 10 years ago. How can we claim with any certainty that anyone else would have stayed where they were?
Mind reading is not one of the courses I learned in history.

Most of them don’t speak their native language because of the genocide.
Most of them don’t have their religion because of the genocide.

Which ones?
How can we tell the ones that freely chose English and their religion from the ones that you claim otherwise?

All of them grew up with parents and grandparents (besides the ones who were taken away from their parents) who were both results of and victims of the genocide.

Well, again, were it true genocide there would be no one left to worry with.
But thanks for explaining that they are all one to two generations removed.
That proves my point, there is no one left that is directly effected.

Are you aware that some laws forbidding the practice of Native American religion were not overturned until the 1980s?

No, that is interesting. But it is also irrelevent.

Let’s stop with the apologies for genocide. Let’s work for justice.

Who is apologizing?
I have done nothing wrong.

 

[Jerry_Miah]

Please name a single dead person Germany paid back.

First, if it were genocide, there wouldn’t be descendents.
Second, no single thing today can be directly tied to the treaty violations.

I don’t live where I did 10 years ago. How can we claim with any certainty that anyone else would have stayed where they were?
Mind reading is not one of the courses I learned in history.

Which ones?
How can we tell the ones that freely chose English and their religion from the ones that you claim otherwise?

Well, again, were it true genocide there would be no one left to worry with.
But thanks for explaining that they are all one to two generations removed.
That proves my point, there is no one left that is directly effected.

No, that is interesting. But it is also irrelevent.
Who is apologizing?
I have done nothing wrong.

With respect, you need to learn more about what you’re talking about. You’re also being extremely insensitive to victims of the Holocaust and genocide, even if you are only joking that the Germans didn’t commit genocide or else “there wouldn’t be any descendants.” Genocide does not mean a successful elimination of everybody within an ethnic group; it means an attempt at that, as well as the intentional destruction of a religion, a language, and also forced relocation.

To say Native Americans possibly “freely chose” English and Christianity is an ugly thing to say about genocide. It’s like saying Jews freely chose to live in the Warsaw Ghetto.

Germany paid billions of dollars to the survivors of the Holocaust and their families, to the children of victims. It was the least they could do.

The tribal lands of most Native American tribes are well documented. To dismiss it as “mind reading” that the tribes would still be there today is another insult.

If you’re just making jokes, you should stop. It’s pretty horrible to see wisecracks about genocide in these forums.

 

[vz71]

With respect, you need to learn more about what you’re talking about. You’re also being extremely insensitive to victims of the Holocaust and genocide, even if you are only joking that the Germans didn’t commit genocide or else “there wouldn’t be any descendants.” Genocide does not mean a successful elimination of everybody within an ethnic group; it means an attempt at that, as well as the intentional destruction of a religion, a language, and also forced relocation.

Does this mean you cannot name any dead person paid restitution?

To say Native Americans possibly “freely chose” English and Christianity is an ugly thing to say about genocide. It’s like saying Jews freely chose to live in the Warsaw Ghetto.

I have never heard speaking English compared to a Warsaw Ghetto.
Although I have heard some students do a very good job with mutilating the English language, I doubt there is any real comparison to Warsaw Ghettos.
As to the comparison of Christianity…that seems a little insulting.
Do you intend such?

Germany paid billions of dollars to the survivors of the Holocaust and their families, to the children of victims. It was the least they could do.

Indeed. They paid restitution to those directly effected by their crimes.
There are no survivors today directly effected by the treaty violations.

The tribal lands of most Native American tribes are well documented. To dismiss it as “mind reading” that the tribes would still be there today is another insult.

Perhaps it would be.
But that is not what I refer to.
I refer to your mind reading. You claim some special knowledge that really can only be known by the individual.

If you’re just making jokes, you should stop. It’s pretty horrible to see wisecracks about genocide in these forums.

Agreed.
I would not dare make wisecracks about genocide.

But the logic you need to go through to arrive at the conclusion is fair game.

 

[Jerry_Miah]

Does this mean you cannot name any dead person paid restitution?

I have never heard speaking English compared to a Warsaw Ghetto.
Although I have heard some students do a very good job with mutilating the English language, I doubt there is any real comparison to Warsaw Ghettos.
As to the comparison of Christianity…that seems a little insulting.
Do you intend such?

Indeed. They paid restitution to those directly effected by their crimes.
There are no survivors today directly effected by the treaty violations.

Perhaps it would be.
But that is not what I refer to.
I refer to your mind reading. You claim some special knowledge that really can only be known by the individual.

Agreed.
I would not dare make wisecracks about genocide.

But the logic you need to go through to arrive at the conclusion is fair game.

I have shown you that you don’t know what you’re talking about with your dismissal of the term genocide to apply to Native Americans.

I have shown that both the survivors of genocide and their descendants are the victims of genocide.

Being intentionally obtuse about understanding an obvious analogy does not help your argument. To simplify and repeat, the Native Americans did not “freely choose” their relocation any more than the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did (and to say so is to condone genocide.) Therefore it is also obvious that the descendants of people who were forced off their lands are part of the legacy of that genocide. The return of some lands to the Native Americans is both sound and just. I invite you to fight for, and not against, justice for indigenous people in the USA.

 

[estesbob]

I have shown you that you don’t know what you’re talking about with your dismissal of the term genocide to apply to Native Americans.

I have shown that both the survivors of genocide and their descendants are the victims of genocide.

Being intentionally obtuse about understanding an obvious analogy does not help your argument. To simplify and repeat, the Native Americans did not “freely choose” their relocation any more than the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did (and to say so is to condone genocide.) Therefore it is also obvious that the descendants of people who were forced off their lands are part of the legacy of that genocide. The return of some lands to the Native Americans is both sound and just. I invite you to fight for, and not against, justice for indigenous people in the USA.

/
You a free to give your land to any Native American you want.

 

[BrWilliam]

First off the way the first Americans were treated no amount of money can be given as compensation!~ let alone tax breaks! Native Americans are the poorest people in this nation. They couldn’t afford to pay taxes. As far as what they get or pay is so low it is a crime by it self! Just think of all the rights you have WE native don’t get to enjoy even half Did you know that Native Americans got the right to vote by JFK? I invite you to visit any reservation and volunteer a few days or more you will walk away a different person. Peace

To be honest, I thought reservations had rights to some limted self-governance and self-governance already, Carnelian.

For example, as far as I know, if you live in an Indian reservation, you do not have to pay any taxes, period.

I would call that (if true) more than enough “make up” for the past.

 

[wisecath]

Jerry Miah keeps repeating genocide & stealing land when to repeat, American Indians killed eachother for livestock & land, but when they won, they had winner takes all attitude but when the American Indians lost, then they complained about stolen land, yet again, they had no problem with wars to get land as long as they won. Repeat it’s the proud winner, sore loser thinking that American Indian groups have. But Jerry Miah ignores or perhaps doesn’t care about the fact that American Indians do not have to live on reservations. They have the best of both in the U.S. They can live on the reservations, not pay property taxes & get the benefits of free medical care. They can work outside reservations & bring money back. Or American Indians can live anywhere else in the U.S., if they pay the rent, etc.

If an American Indian in the 2012 was discriminated against whether it’s in housing, job or the legal system, then that is wrong & must be solved. If an American Indian is a crime victim, then there must be just punishment. If an American Indian commits a crime, then they must get just punishment just as non-American Indians get for the same crime. Jerry Miah writes as if American Indians in 2012 are still unfairly treated by govt., when they have = chance to be successful as any other American. Right or wrong, it’s useless to complain about what happened in the 1800s, because that’s history. It would also be wrong for Blacks or non-Blacks to complain about slavery as that was abolished in 1865. Focus on what’s happening** today **, not what happened in 1800s. Incidentally, my parents came from India, but the British don’t owe me an apology for colonising India & the Portuguese don’t need to apologise for colonising Goa. After India became independent in 1947 & Goa in 1961, the topic became moot. Please, let the past stay in the past.

 

[BernardM]

You bring up a valid point about the leftist view of history. It used to be we were fearsome warriors who killed wantonly and were to be feared and respected. Now we are reduced to moderately retarded people who are incapable of the full spectrum of human behavior and were so dim that our ancestors were regularly tricked out of land by Snidley Whiplash’s duller brother.

 

[He_Man]

/
You a free to give your land to any Native American you want.

Elizabeth Warren may or may not be able to accept it.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

You bring up a valid point about the leftist view of history. It used to be we were fearsome warriors who killed wantonly and were to be feared and respected. Now we are reduced to moderately retarded people who are incapable of the full spectrum of human behavior and were so dim that our ancestors were regularly tricked out of land by Snidley Whiplash’s duller brother.

LOL.

And to top it all off, Dudley Do-Right just stood by and allowed it to occur.

Again----LOL.

 

[estesbob]

Elizabeth Warren may or may not be able to accept it.

 

[opus101]

Sorry. I differ. Some of my ancestors were among those ripped off. Even a small percentage might reduce the hard feelings. It would not do to push you all back to Europe-- I agree that is unrealistic.

Take a look at our National Parks-- the US does not do well with them-- why not turn some of that land over.

 

[Tenofovir]

Being intentionally obtuse about understanding an obvious analogy does not help your argument. To simplify and repeat, the Native Americans did not “freely choose” their relocation any more than the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did (and to say so is to condone genocide.) Therefore it is also obvious that the descendants of people who were forced off their lands are part of the legacy of that genocide. The return of some lands to the Native Americans is both sound and just. I invite you to fight for, and not against, justice for indigenous people in the USA.

Forcing someone off their land is not genocide. Killing people or causing policies which lead to the killing of people in significant numbers with the aim of reducing or eliminating the population is genocide. Forced resettlement unless it was of the type as done in Communist Russia in the 20s onwards is not genocide. In Russia people were purposefully resettled in the hope that many would die and when they arrived in their new locations they were not given anything to aid them in farming.

Secondly the mere forceful confinement of Jews to ghettos was not genocide either. Genocide is what happened in death camps to Jews, Poles, Roma and others, what the German Eintsazgruppen commandos did to Jews and Russians in Russia and what happened in Cambodia, USSR and Rwanda.

 

[vz71]

/
You a free to give your land to any Native American you want.

Agreed.
My biggest problem is when they wish to give back my land.
Or for that matter, any land from anyone that does not wish to give it up.