Using Paul's writings with non-Christians

[ralphinal]

I thought this thread would degrade. I was not intending to talk about the view that Muslims have of St. Paul. I was more interested in if we, as Christians, could defend our core beleifs without mentioning his work. There is no way to discuss what we beleive when the other side automatically denies the use of one of our writers.

Paar,
The fact that Paul does not mention Mary is not in and of itself any kind of issue. By the time Paul joined the Apostles, there is a chance that she was living somewhere else with John. Further, Paul and John did not exactly travel together. Paul would have had very limited contact with her at all.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No! No! No!

DO NOT CHANGE THE WORD.

Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
(Romans 9:5)

CHRIST IS GOD OVER ALL, FOREVER PRAISED!
and

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say No to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self- controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope— the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (Titus 2:11-14)

CHRIST IS OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR!

DO NOT CHANGE THE WORD.

We never changed the word as the Koran says. Mohammed changed the word.

DO NOT CHANGE THE WORD.

Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God toward man, our Saviour, appeared Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he (GOD) saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he (GOD) shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

I think you are using NIV.

Titus 3:4-6 But when the kindness and love of God (THROUGH) our Savior appeared, he (GOD) saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his (GOD’S) mercy. He (GOD) saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he (GOD) poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

God and Jesus are separate here, it doesn’t say God is Jesus. It’s just a misreading.

 

[inJESUS]

Hi

I think Paul is not mentioned in Quran. If so, please give a quotation from Quran.

Thanks

no, he is mentioned in Hadith and commentaries as Jesus’ apostles

However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard,no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.” (1 Corinthians 2:9)

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "ALLAH SAID, ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things)
as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.’"
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589)

didn’t Allah know these were Paul’s words?

to the OP, am not aware of Christians not using Paul …am i missing something?

 

[ralphinal]

Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God toward man, our Saviour, appeared Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he (GOD) saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he (GOD) shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

I think you are using NIV.

Titus 3:4-6 But when the kindness and love of God (THROUGH) our Savior appeared, he (GOD) saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his (GOD’S) mercy. He (GOD) saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he (GOD) poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

God and Jesus are separate here, it doesn’t say God is Jesus. It’s just a misreading.

If you read all the "he"s in here as being God the Father, it leads to that conclusion, but it is horrible grammer. The first “he” has to refer to the Savior for the sentence to make sense. The first “His” is God. The next “He” again refers to the Savior. The last He is the Father. Any other way to read the "he"s is problematic.

 

[inJESUS]

,God and Jesus are separate here, it doesn’t say God is Jesus. It’s just a misreading.

you are replying to a different passage, why don’t you reply to the passages given to you?

Colossians 1:15-18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Paul is talking about Jesus as the Logos/Wisdom of God:

Wisdom of Solomon 7:26 (Wisdom is) a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.

Colossians 1:16 …by him all things were created…

Wisdom of Solomon 1:14 “for he created all things that they might exist”

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Wisdom of Solomon 1:7 …that which holds all things together knows what is said…

It is easy to twist the meaning of words, but it is not easy to overlook a general theme found in the words of Paul and all the other apostles, that Jesus is the Logos, the etenal Wisdom of the Father.

 

[ralphinal]

no, he is mentioned in Hadith and commentaries as Jesus’ apostles

to the OP, am not aware of Christians not using Paul …am i missing something?

No. That is my question. When a Catholic and a Protestant discuss faith, from my experiance, 75% or more of the quotes from Scripture used by the Protestant are Paul’s. That is not a problem as Catholics accept it as well. Muslims do not. If you are discussing with a Muslim and Paul holds no weight, can you base your claims without his writings?

 

[inJESUS]

.

maybe he thinks we believe the Father is Jesus?

 

[ralphinal]

maybe he thinks we believe the Father is Jesus?

Ah, like the Jesus only folks…

 

[inJESUS]

If you are discussing with a Muslim and Paul holds no weight, can you base your claims without his writings?

so far i did it depends on what you are discussing anyway : crucifixion, resurrection, divinity, can be quoted from all gospels…

 

[inJESUS]

Ah, like the Jesus only folks…

no seriously i dont know where he is coming from, but saying Jesus is differentiated from the Father is a strange argument because we know this…but if he is saying Jesus is not divine according to scriptures, then here we have a problem.

 

[ralphinal]

no seriously i dont know where he is coming from, but saying Jesus is differentiated from the Father is a strange argument because we know this…but if he is saying Jesus is not divine according to scriptures, then here we have a problem.

One that has been beat to death on every Christian discussion forum in the world. One that has been dealt with for 2000 years.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

If you read all the "he"s in here as being God the Father, it leads to that conclusion, but it is horrible grammer. The first “he” has to refer to the Savior for the sentence to make sense. The first “His” is God. The next “He” again refers to the Savior. The last He is the Father. Any other way to read the "he"s is problematic.

How do you determine that in the second sentence the first he is Jesus, the second is God?

Titus 3:4-6 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he (JESUS) saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his (GOD’S) mercy. He (JESUS) saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he (GOD) poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

 

[ralphinal]

How do you determine that in the second sentence the first he is Jesus, the second is God?

Titus 3:4-6 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he (JESUS) saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his (GOD’S) mercy. He (JESUS) saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he (GOD) poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Rules of English. Pronouns refer to the closest noun that fits. “when the kindness and love of God, our Savior apreared, The Savior saved us” makes more sense than “when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, God saved us.”

Why even have a savior if God is doing the saving? Unless God and the Savior are the same person…

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Rules of English. Pronouns refer to the closest noun that fits. “when the kindness and love of God, our Savior apreared, The Savior saved us” makes more sense than “when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, God saved us.”

Why even have a savior if God is doing the saving? Unless God and the Savior are the same person…

Well you would be saying that God saved us by sending Jesus, who as a man also saves people. But God is ultimate savior.

If you say the closest noun, then maybe you should read it as:

“…God’s mercy. He (God) saved us …”

So

“God saved us …by the Holy Spirit whom He poured out …through Jesus our Savior.”

Not

“Jesus saved us …by the Holy Spirit whom God poured out …through Jesus our Savior.”

Since, why say Jesus saved us then say he is the Savior again at the end? Doesn’t make sense.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

I agree with hamba2han.

We see Paul had animosity towards towards Jesus, and because of that, also with Mary, and further because of that, the twelve Apostels.

It is for this that we think Paul is a none-entity. We should understand Jesus and his teachings from his own words.

Another difficulty is that as we understand even the four Gospels have been tailored or edited by Paul and his associates.

The only solution is we should rely what has been narrated by Quran.

Quran respectes Jesus, Mary and the Apostels. There is no word of disrespect or hatred about them in Quran.

That is what I believe; I have read both Quran and Bible; one may however differ with my views.

Thanks

Dear Paarsurrey,

First, why do you think that Paul was unimosity toward Jesus and the deciples? Paul seeked Peter, and met Peter in Jerusalem.

Second, paul did not write any gospel. Paul wrote letters to the Christians. Please provide any proof that Paul tailored or edit any gospel.

Third, you mentioned that we should understand Jesus and his teaching from his own words. Why do we need to go to Quran? Quran does not come from Jesus. Somebody said even Quran does not come from Muhammad (from Uthman instead).

Fourth, the Bible also never says bad things about Muhammad either. Not just because Muhammad was not existed yet during the time. Jesus himself said that he came as the saviour of all human, and indirectly Jesus meant to include Muhammad.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

By the time Paul joined the Apostles, there is a chance that she was living somewhere else with John. Further, Paul and John did not exactly travel together. Paul would have had very limited contact with her at all.

Hi

I think Paul never joined the Apostles, he did not want to. They called him to Jerusalem, he promised but never went there. He knew as to what was for him there. On one pretex or the other, he never visited them, so, it think it is not suitable to say about him that he joined them.

Mary has a specific significance and stature in Catholicism, Paul never acknowledged it. If she was living with John, that does not hinder him meeting her.

“Paul and John did not exactly travel together” agreed ;that is what I say that Paul did not like to follow them, neither he wanted to follow Mary nor the Apostles, which shows his aversion to them, in my opinion - not a single word of love Paul spoke for Mary.

I love Jesus, Mary and the Apostles (as Quran mentions about them).

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

Hi

I think Paul never joined the Apostles, he did not want to. They called him to Jerusalem, he promised but never went there. He knew as to what was for him there. On one pretex or the other, he never visited them, so, it think it is not suitable to say about him that he joined them.

Mary has a specific significance and stature in Catholicism, Paul never acknowledged it. If she was living with John, that does not hinder him meeting her.

“Paul and John did not exactly travel together” agreed ;that is what I say that Paul did not like to follow them, neither he wanted to follow Mary nor the Apostles, which shows his aversion to them, in my opinion - not a single word of love Paul spoke for Mary.

I love Jesus, Mary and the Apostles (as Quran mentions about them).

Thanks

Dear Paar,

Where do you get the idea that Paul never reached Jerusalem? Acts 15:1-4 said so. Acts was written by Luke, not Paul.

Paul is right, as also the Catholic Church, that the salvation was brought by Jesus. The important figure should be Jesus not Mary.

I do believe Paar, that Jesus, Mary and the Apostles also love you too, more than you love them.

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Third, you mentioned that we should understand Jesus and his teaching from his own words. Why do we need to go to Quran? Quran does not come from Jesus. Somebody said even Quran does not come from Muhammad (from Uthman instead).

That’s the problem with the Muslims’ premise. They think it’s about only the words of Jesus that Christianity is based on.

Apostolic witness is not just about the teachings of Jesus, though they are important, but it is about the person of Jesus.

Jesus did not say “I rise from the dead” or “I am dead now”, but witness saw these happenings. The apostles did not only proclaim Jesus’ words; they proclaimed the Gospel! Gospel is news aand the apostles were reporters. They reported both words and deeds of Jesus.

It is hard for Muslims to understand Christianity because they think we are ‘the people of the book’, which for them is a literal translation - we only listen to the teachings/words of Jesus albeit errorneously. They don’t say we are witnesses for Jesus.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jesus did not say “I rise from the dead”

Well, he did, really, in Rev.

I’m just makinh a point …

 

[East_Anglican]

The Father is God, The Son (Jesus) is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

Muslims do not believe this because they do not believe The Bible.

Paar,

Have you ever read The Book of Acts?