Using Paul's writings with non-Christians

[paarsurrey]

The Father is God, The Son (Jesus) is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

Muslims do not believe this because they do not believe The Bible.

Paar,

Have you ever read The Book of Acts?

Hi

I have read the whole Bible from cover to cover, both Catholic and Protestants, complet OTBible and NTBible, so naturally Acts is included.

Thanks

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I thought that there would never be a time when I would really understand the passage of scripture which says that to some, Jesus is a stumbling block or a scandal. How could the Lord of Life and Love be a scandal or a stumbling block? But it is clear that indeed the mere wisdom of men is foolishness to God.

Perhaps it is too much to hope for, but I would hope that those who wish to debate with believing Trinitarian Christians regarding the nature of Christ would at least be able to grasp how the Church (which is the Body of Christ!) understands her Lord and realize that what is being dealt with is revelation and not mere rationalism. We are not talking about simple rational categories here! Mere human thought will not penetrate the deep mysteries of God! But grace and faith perceive what mere mentation cannot–and what faith by grace perceives is revealed in the traditions of the Church regarding the Lover of Mankind, Jesus Christ, the God-Man who is truly God and truly Man without confusion of substance. Who prays to the Father according to his humanity, but who is God according to his Divinity. Who not only restored humanity to its condition before the fall, but who opened to all people the ability to participate in the very life of God. Who reconciled both God and Man by marrying the two in his very Person! What a great mystery! “God became Man that Man might become God” cries St. Athanasius. “What God is by nature we shall be by grace” writes St. Maximos. Only the God-Man could accomplish this Great Work.

What foolishness it is to reduce the gifts of divine grace to rags by attempting to rationalize the mysteries! How can one talk of Christ without knowing Christ? And how can one know Christ without the mind of Christ? And how can one receive the mind of Christ without receiving it through participation in his Body, the Church?

For those who have not experienced the mysteries, it is best to keep silent about what you cannot understand. Again, ultimately, this argument is about revelation. The Church understands her Lord and King and Spouse because of the grace of revelation. As such, to speak of Christ in a way other than the way in which the Church understands him is to speak of a figure entirely divorced from the Reality of Christ. That figure may be a lovely individual, an exemplary person, a prophet of some sort, but let us be clear that unless you understand Christ the way the Church understands Christ, you are not debating the truth of Christianity or the real nature of Christ (which is beyond debate where faith and experiential knowledge is concerned) at all.

If that non-Christian Christ means something to you, well great! You can have it, and you can say whatever you like about it! But be sure not to confuse your figure with Jesus Christ, Head of the Church, King of Fearful Majesty, Lover of Souls. And I, for my part, will not confuse the two either.

Thanks.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[ralphinal]

Grace & Peace!

I thought that there would never be a time when I would really understand the passage of scripture which says that to some, Jesus is a stumbling block or a scandal. How could the Lord of Life and Love be a scandal or a stumbling block? But it is clear that indeed the mere wisdom of men is foolishness to God.

Perhaps it is too much to hope for, but I would hope that those who wish to debate with believing Trinitarian Christians regarding the nature of Christ would at least be able to grasp how the Church (which is the Body of Christ!) understands her Lord and realize that what is being dealt with is revelation and not mere rationalism. We are not talking about simple rational categories here! Mere human thought will not penetrate the deep mysteries of God! But grace and faith perceive what mere mentation cannot–and what faith by grace perceives is revealed in the traditions of the Church regarding the Lover of Mankind, Jesus Christ, the God-Man who is truly God and truly Man without confusion of substance. Who prays to the Father according to his humanity, but who is God according to his Divinity. Who not only restored humanity to its condition before the fall, but who opened to all people the ability to participate in the very life of God. Who reconciled both God and Man by marrying the two in his very Person! What a great mystery! “God became Man that Man might become God” cries St. Athanasius. “What God is by nature we shall be by grace” writes St. Maximos. Only the God-Man could accomplish this Great Work.

What foolishness it is to reduce the gifts of divine grace to rags by attempting to rationalize the mysteries! How can one talk of Christ without knowing Christ? And how can one know Christ without the mind of Christ? And how can one receive the mind of Christ without receiving it through participation in his Body, the Church?

For those who have not experienced the mysteries, it is best to keep silent about what you cannot understand. Again, ultimately, this argument is about revelation. The Church understands her Lord and King and Spouse because of the grace of revelation. As such, to speak of Christ in a way other than the way in which the Church understands him is to speak of a figure entirely divorced from the Reality of Christ. That figure may be a lovely individual, an exemplary person, a prophet of some sort, but let us be clear that unless you understand Christ the way the Church understands Christ, you are not debating the truth of Christianity or the real nature of Christ (which is beyond debate where faith and experiential knowledge is concerned) at all.

If that non-Christian Christ means something to you, well great! You can have it, and you can say whatever you like about it! But be sure not to confuse your figure with Jesus Christ, Head of the Church, King of Fearful Majesty, Lover of Souls. And I, for my part, will not confuse the two either.

Thanks.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

Wonderful post.

 

[ralphinal]

Well you would be saying that God saved us by sending Jesus, who as a man also saves people. But God is ultimate savior.

If you say the closest noun, then maybe you should read it as:

“…God’s mercy. He (God) saved us …”

So

“God saved us …by the Holy Spirit whom He poured out …through Jesus our Savior.”

Not

“Jesus saved us …by the Holy Spirit whom God poured out …through Jesus our Savior.”

Since, why say Jesus saved us then say he is the Savior again at the end? Doesn’t make sense.

But it does make sense for two reasons. First, it reafirms that Christ is our savior, keeping focus on His work. Second, it connects the fact that God saved the world through Christ and Christ alone, no other man involved.

Let me ask a simple question: how could a man, no matter how holy, save anyone from sin when only God has the power to forgive sins?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

But it does make sense for two reasons. First, it reafirms that Christ is our savior, keeping focus on His work. Second, it connects the fact that God saved the world through Christ and Christ alone, no other man involved.

Let me ask a simple question: how could a man, no matter how holy, save anyone from sin when only God has the power to forgive sins?

God gives him that power, just like He gave Moses save Israel from the sin of Egypt. Jesus can save no one all by himself, not even save himself from death, he gets it all from God.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he (Jesus) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God) that was able to save him (Jesus) from death, and was heard in that he feared;

 

[ralphinal]

God gives him that power, just like He gave Moses save Israel from the sin of Egypt. Jesus can save no one all by himself, not even save himself from death, he gets it all from God.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he (Jesus) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God) that was able to save him (Jesus) from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Did God give Mohammid the power to forgive sin as well?

I would say that Jesus had the power to forgive sin because He is God. Moses could not simple look at someone and forgive the sin, he brought the sacrificial system to the people. Jesus told them their sins were forgiven with no animal involved.

I would also like to ask what the method of salvation used by Jesus was. How did he save man?

I thought Muslims denyied that Jesus died on the Cross. Is that a part of your form of Islam?