Utterly, unreservedly and totally abominable

[SpiritFire]

:banghead: :bigyikes:!!!

So, I went to a evening (6:00 p.m.) Youth Sunday mass, at a National Shrine, which is not my usual parish.
The homily was fine, and the Church and it’s appointments were beautiful, and the liturgy overall, especially the Eucharistic prayer, was actually very prayerful.

Besides the fact the entrance song sounded like a '90s toothpaste commercial, and the rest of the music was hip and rocky, (With the exception of the Lamb of God, which was actually beautiful, even though it didn’t even follow the official words),
I was horrified at the grave abuses when the distribution of the Most Holy Eucharist came about:
First, there were about a million lay “Eucharistic Ministers”.

After the consecration, these lay people took great handfuls of the Holy Eucharist and “helped” the priest distribute them into what was probably 15 smaller patens for use of the “Eucharistic Ministers”. (why not BEFORE the consecration???)
Meanwhile, a woman processed up to the altar carrying 2 great Ciborii filled with consecrated Hosts, which I can safely assume she took from the Tabernacle herself. (It is
stored away in a grotto as the church is built “in the round”)

As the priest distributed Communion to the some 25 laypeople, some of the others, who were to distribute the Precious Blood, marched up to the altar and took the chalices directly from it and self-communicated. (I’m pretty sure), then gave Holy Communion to their associates.

Then communion proceeded with the faithful finally receiving in a lawful manner, as far as that goes.

When communion was over, the jazzy chord died away and the “eucharist ministers” stood around the altar while the priest purified some of the vessels.
After that, the priest stayed in the sanctuary while they processed in a huge line, all carrying ciborii and patens and un-purified chalices to the grotto containing the Tabernacle, where, again, I can probably assume they placed Him themselves.
No idea what they did with the chalices.

And this is a National Shrine!!

This is NOT, NOT what the Second Vatican Council or anything from Rome after that,
sanctions or approves of.
But this is the norm there apparently, and for a lot of other parishes in America.

Makes me want to cry

Pray to end Liturgical Abuse!

“indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”
-Pope St. Pius X

"Whenever an abuse is commited in the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, it is to be seen as a real falsification of Catholic Liturgy. St Thomas wrote “the vice of falsehood is perpetrated by anyone who offeres worship to God on behalf of the Church in a manner contrary to that which is established by the Church with divine authority, and to which the Church is accustomed”
-Redemptionis Sacramentum

“Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority”
"they ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry be corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions.
-Sacrosanctum Concilium

I propose Liturgical abuse as utterly, unreservedly and totally abominable in even the slightest form!
Necessary and lawful adaptions excepted of course.
Shame on anyone who tries to rob us of our patrimony, our sacred gift - The liturgy and Tradition!

Amen?

 

[puzzleannie]

sounds fine to me, they took the empty vessels to the sacristy or other place where they could be properly purified, or the took the ciborium to the tabernacle, which at a National Shrine is no doubt in another are from the main sanctuary. Also being a large church I assume the crowd at Mass was large, so they used EMHCs, actually in the circumstance where it is envisioned they will be needed. Fine. They followed the rules. What precisely is your problem? when we were there yes there were a lot of ministers, but it was packed for a holy day, but the EMHCs communicated each other, not themselves, but it was hard to see–are you sure they self communicated? Did you expect the priest to leave the altar, walk all the way to the tabernacle in another room, bring back ciborium of previously consecrated hosts, and then take them back himself? He is not allowed to leave the altar so that would have indeed been an abuse.

 

[Barbkw]

So, I went to a evening (6:00 p.m.) Youth Sunday mass, at a National Shrine, which is not my usual parish.
The homily was fine, and the Church and it’s appointments were beautiful, and the liturgy overall, especially the Eucharistic prayer, was actually very prayerful.

Besides the fact the entrance song sounded like a '90s toothpaste commercial, and the rest of the music was hip and rocky, (With the exception of the Lamb of God, which was actually beautiful, even though it didn’t even follow the official words),
I was horrified at the grave abuses when the distribution of the Most Holy Eucharist came about:
First, there were about a million lay “Eucharistic Ministers”.

So…all in all, your grade on the parish’s evening performance was what…a “D”.

 

[laszlo]

Matt 15:1 Then came to him from Jerusalem scribes and Pharisees, saying: 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the ancients? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

 

[TheMc]

It is sad that everything from the irreverent and unsuitable music to the reverence in handling our Lord has been degraded.

 

[Monica4316]

:banghead: :bigyikes:!!!

So, I went to a evening (6:00 p.m.) Youth Sunday mass, at a National Shrine, which is not my usual parish.
The homily was fine, and the Church and it’s appointments were beautiful, and the liturgy overall, especially the Eucharistic prayer, was actually very prayerful.

Besides the fact the entrance song sounded like a '90s toothpaste commercial, and the rest of the music was hip and rocky, (With the exception of the Lamb of God, which was actually beautiful, even though it didn’t even follow the official words),
I was horrified at the grave abuses when the distribution of the Most Holy Eucharist came about:
First, there were about a million lay “Eucharistic Ministers”.

After the consecration, these lay people took great handfuls of the Holy Eucharist and “helped” the priest distribute them into what was probably 15 smaller patens for use of the “Eucharistic Ministers”. (why not BEFORE the consecration???)
Meanwhile, a woman processed up to the altar carrying 2 great Ciborii filled with consecrated Hosts, which I can safely assume she took from the Tabernacle herself. (It is
stored away in a grotto as the church is built “in the round”)

As the priest distributed Communion to the some 25 laypeople, some of the others, who were to distribute the Precious Blood, marched up to the altar and took the chalices directly from it and self-communicated. (I’m pretty sure), then gave Holy Communion to their associates.

Then communion proceeded with the faithful finally receiving in a lawful manner, as far as that goes.

When communion was over, the jazzy chord died away and the “eucharist ministers” stood around the altar while the priest purified some of the vessels.
After that, the priest stayed in the sanctuary while they processed in a huge line, all carrying ciborii and patens and un-purified chalices to the grotto containing the Tabernacle, where, again, I can probably assume they placed Him themselves.
No idea what they did with the chalices.

And this is a National Shrine!!

This is NOT, NOT what the Second Vatican Council or anything from Rome after that,
sanctions or approves of.
But this is the norm there apparently, and for a lot of other parishes in America.

Makes me want to cry

Pray to end Liturgical Abuse!

“indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”
-Pope St. Pius X

"Whenever an abuse is commited in the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy, it is to be seen as a real falsification of Catholic Liturgy. St Thomas wrote “the vice of falsehood is perpetrated by anyone who offeres worship to God on behalf of the Church in a manner contrary to that which is established by the Church with divine authority, and to which the Church is accustomed”
-Redemptionis Sacramentum

“Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority”
"they ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry be corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions.
-Sacrosanctum Concilium

I propose Liturgical abuse as utterly, unreservedly and totally abominable in even the slightest form!
Necessary and lawful adaptions excepted of course.
Shame on anyone who tries to rob us of our patrimony, our sacred gift - The liturgy and Tradition!

Amen?

all that sounds so wrong to me even if it was according to the rubrics, it’s still not the ideal or the reverent way to give people the Eucharist!

 

[TheMc]

I guess I should go into more detail about the music.

The church clearly says that anything that has a secular sound has absolutely no place in the Mass. “90s toothpaste commercial” sounding sounds, as well as rock and roll all fall into this category. And Jazz? Certanly secular.

If only people could understand that we need to play sacred music for the sacred liturgy, and secular music belongs on the radio. Period!

Not to mention the Agnus Dei that doesn’t follow the text.

 

[Cristiano]

I have a great exercise to avoid further nitpicking discussions.

Whomever has not committed a mortal sin in the last two years is invited to give a personal opinion on the description of the facts. Anyone else please reflect on your past sins and see how the affected or will affect your fellow Christians.

 

[TheMc]

I have a great exercise to avoid further nitpicking discussions.

Whomever has not committed a mortal sin in the last two years is invited to give a personal opinion on the description of the facts. Anyone else please reflect on your past sins and see how the affected or will affect your fellow Christians.

If you were aiming that at me, It’s not nitpicking, it’s facts. Secular music (Jazz, rock, “toothpaste commercial jingles”) should never be played at Mass. In fact, the closer something is in sound to chant, the more suitable it is for Mass. The farther it is, the less suitable it is from chant. Rock music is about the farthest away from chant you can get.

When these styles of music are played at Mass, it is a very real falsification of Catholic Liturgy, and it frequently distorts the authentic meaning of the Liturgy.

This is not a matter of taste, but it’s a matter of what the church has asked us to play and sing at Mass.

By the way, the liturgy is the most important thing we can do in our entire lives. When people are being abusive with it, we have a right for the abuse to stop.

 

[Monica4316]

I guess I should go into more detail about the music.

The church clearly says that anything that has a secular sound has absolutely no place in the Mass. “90s toothpaste commercial” sounding sounds, as well as rock and roll all fall into this category. And Jazz? Certanly secular.

If only people could understand that we need to play sacred music for the sacred liturgy, and secular music belongs on the radio. Period!

Not to mention the Agnus Dei that doesn’t follow the text.

Yes, and that is what the Holy Father said too
ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html

 

[laszlo]

There is the principle of the serenity: to change what we can chage, to accept what we cannot, and to be able to make distiction between the two.

We can describe a handicapped men as abominable, but this is not Christian behavior. The same is true for the Mass, for the real presence of our Lord. If we cannot change we should not use harsh terms.

One more thing. The sex is good. God created the sex and like everything else He made it good. It has reason, the procreation. The masturbation represents some pleasure of the sex, but the lack of the true reason makes it sin.

The criticism of some Masses, without any hope to change the things, only to get pleasure on the criticism is the exact sibling of the masturbation: reason-less.

 

[SpiritFire]

Thanks, Monica, for the link to the Holy Father’s writings. I was reading them and found myself saying “Amen” after almost every sentence.
Everything is so TRUE.

To the MC, I just can’t seem to agree enough with your opinions about liturgy

Laszlo, when did I ever say the Real Presence of Christ in the world ( the liturgy )
was abominable?
Rome says the faithful are not to accept abuse. The abuse of the Most Holy Mass is abominable, not the Mass itself.
Using masturbation as an analogy is also kinda weird.
Although you are right in the sense there is no use complaining just to complain. But we have to know what we are up against, don’t we?

The problem with a mass like the one I described is that it didn’t follow the true teaching of the church, much less the rubrics.
And making up (adding or omitting) the words to the liturgical music (response for the responsorial psalm, Lamb of God, etc) is simply inappropriate and de-authenticates the sacred action.

MC, the music WAS rather good in and of itself, and the musician was a well-known jazz pianist in our area…you know, more power to him… but when you try to use things like that for a LITURGY…I don’t know:shrug: Just so…cheap.

 

[SpiritFire]

Take that back about the music…they took Mass of Creation and all the other stuff and just tried to make it more “hip” and “relevant” to youth.
So, the music wasn’t even being itself.
The music was bad, especially for Mass.

 

[laszlo]

Laszlo, when did I ever say the Real Presence of Christ in the world ( the liturgy )
was abominable?

You said it on a particular Mass (Utterly, unreservedly and totally abominable) . Ecvery valid Mass, without exception is the real presence of out Lord. As we do not call a man abominable, no matter how handicapped he is, we Catholics do not call a mass abominable, no matter how much we dislike. There may be no reason to do so.

Please quote when Rome said that faithful are judges over their priests and can not accept (whatever it means) their masses.

 

[puzzleannie]

please reserve the words in your thread title for genuine liturgical abuse, none of which you describe in OP

great job focusing on non-essentials and ignoring the miracle of the altar, Satan must be so pleased you are so easily distracted.

I think Cristiano should be made a mod.

 

[TheMc]

Take that back about the music…they took Mass of Creation and all the other stuff and just tried to make it more “hip” and “relevant” to youth.
So, the music wasn’t even being itself.
The music was bad, especially for Mass.

Yuck. MOC is bad enough, not to mention not a licit choice. The rest of it how you describe, still utterly unsuitable for Mass.

puzzleannie, do you think this sort of thing is actually acceptable for Mass (Rock, Jazz, etc)? There’s be no debate on the suitability of MOC, but the other music?

 

[TheMc]

Please quote when Rome said that faithful are judges over their priests and can not accept (whatever it means) their masses.

Here’s what the church does say:
1)The faithful have a right to a reverent Mass, celebrated according to the books
b) All abuses are to be be thoroughly corrected (This is a most serious duty for everyone)
c) Any Catholic has the right and a duty to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or to Rome
d) No priest may never add, remove or change anything in the Mass

Besides possibly his choice of words in the title, I don’t see anything wrong with the way SpiritFire handled this. Now, there’s only one more step:

SpiritFire: I would write your bishop, and try to tell it to him with as little opinions, and as many facts as possible, and proof if you have it (such as a hand out with the music choices, or a video).

 

[waterbrook]

It is a shame to see a Mass described in the manner of the title. I’m not a catholic but have attended Mass over a period of more than 25 years. Yes a High Mass can be beautiful but I cant help wonder if perhaps God really wants people to have access to worship him and meet him in the Eucharist. Not everyone would be able to access The mass as the op would perhaps hope it would be celebrated. I am sure God is bigger than the so called abuses. Does God really care who takes the body of christ from the ‘tabernacle’?

 

[if_youCthispray]

please reserve the words in your thread title for genuine liturgical abuse, none of which you describe in OP

great job focusing on non-essentials and ignoring the miracle of the altar, Satan must be so pleased you are so easily distracted.

I think Cristiano should be made a mod.

Satan is also probably pleased with the disrespect shown to Our Lord Jesus Christ at such a Mass

 

[NewsTheMan]

Does God really care who takes the body of christ from the ‘tabernacle’?

Yes. He cares because the Church cares. The Church is the mystical Body of Christ. With the authority to bind and loose. He cares because obedience to the Church is obedience to Christ.

With this type of attitude we may as well not even have public worship or care for any sort of tradition or moral law. “Does God really care what we do at all?”.

This isn’t a personal attack on you by the way - I’m just making a general point here.