Utterly, unreservedly and totally abominable

[TheMc]

It is a shame to see a Mass described in the manner of the title. I’m not a catholic but have attended Mass over a period of more than 25 years. Yes a High Mass can be beautiful but I cant help wonder if perhaps God really wants people to have access to worship him and meet him in the Eucharist. Not everyone would be able to access The mass as the op would perhaps hope it would be celebrated. I am sure God is bigger than the so called abuses. Does God really care who takes the body of christ from the ‘tabernacle’?

Yes, the lord does care.

He gave his authority to the Roman Catholic Church, who has told us that many of the things the OP mentioned are not to be done during Mass. The Lord does not want us to do whatever we want during Mass. He has set specific rules on how he wants to be worshiped. Who are we to toy with them?

 

[SpiritFire]

I am very sorry about the title of this thread
I hereby entitle this thread “How NOT to distribute the Holy Eucharist”

The title is obviously being taken wrong and besides that it is very emotional and uncharitable under any circumstance.
Two things:
DO NOT THINK I AM SOFT ON ABUSE TO THE EUCHARIST.
DO NOT THINK I MISSED THE MIRACLE OF THE ALTAR.

Like I said in the original post, the Eucharistic prayer and everything was prayerful, powerful and reverent enough.
I did not receive Communion though, anyway, because I had already been to Mass that morning. (I know that I could have)
Of course God is bigger than an abuse, but there is a liturgical crisis in our day.
I love this quote from Pope Leo XIII:

“The world has heard enough of the so-called ‘rights of man’. Let it hear something of the rights of God.”

Doesn’t God deserve more respect from a EMHCs, which, by the way, should NOT be just some neat way to get involved in the parish?

There is so much confusion between sacred and secular, clergy and laypeople.

 

[benedictgal]

Regarding the music, I find such to be personally offensive. It seems to me that the words of Pope Benedict XVI in Sacramentum Caritatis should be taken to heart:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

I wrote about this in my blog on a couple of occasions:

benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2011/03/disconcerting-disonnection.html

benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-sacred-music-matters.html

Some of the arguments that I have made in my blog mirror what I have said in the past in these threads.

 

[TrueLight]

Regarding the music, I find such to be personally offensive. It seems to me that the words of Pope Benedict XVI in Sacramentum Caritatis should be taken to heart:

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130)

The problem with this text is that unless the Holy Father is saying he wants Gregorian Chant employed exclusively, whether music corresponds to the “meaning of the mystery” or not is highly subjective.

 

[dconklin]

Yuck. MOC is bad enough, not to mention not a licit choice. The rest of it how you describe, still utterly unsuitable for Mass.

puzzleannie, do you think this sort of thing is actually acceptable for Mass (Rock, Jazz, etc)? There’s be no debate on the suitability of MOC, but the other music?

I bet 200 years ago when Mozart was creating his Sacred Music (that I am sure is considered very Mass appropriate today by many people) there were detractors that though his music was too modern. Will we attract more teens and young adults to the Mass with modern music or with the ‘old standards’? Or do we tell them to sit down and be quiet? What would Jesus do? He seemed to be fond of braking away from tradition if it made it easier to love God and neighbor.

 

[benedictgal]

I bet 200 years ago when Mozart was creating his Sacred Music (that I am sure is considered very Mass appropriate today by many people) there were detractors that though his music was too modern. Will we attract more teens and young adults to the Mass with modern music or with the ‘old standards’? Or do we tell them to sit down and be quiet? What would Jesus do? He seemed to be fond of braking away from tradition if it made it easier to love God and neighbor.

Jesus was not against the liturgical cultic practices of Ancient Israel, as all of these pointed out to him and found their fulfillment in him. We need to be careful not to confuse the “traditions” of the Pharisees (where they were trying to impose priestly practices on the people) and the Traditions of Ancient Israel’s cultic sacrificial worship.

Jesus was faithful to the Tradition of sacrificial cultic worship; after all His own Father dictated just when, where and how Ancient Israel was supposed to worship. God the Father did not take lightly to liturgical abuse (observe what happened to Aaron’s sons and Dathan). God the Son, Jesus,also had the same zeal against liturgical abuse (look at the cleansing of the Temple wherein the moneychangers and vendors set up shop in an area that was reserved for the Gentiles to pray).

The first commandment is to love God. Loving God means giving him the proper worship, as prescribed by the Church founded by Jesus on the rock of St. Peter. Peter still operates in the Church through his successors. Thus, what Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessors, namely Pope St. Pius X, have mandated and interpreted for fitting worship holds true. As the delegates in the Council of Constantinople once wisely observed “Peter has spoken” when referring to Pope Leo when he issued a declaration that effectively ended a major theological squabble.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I bet 200 years ago when Mozart was creating his Sacred Music (that I am sure is considered very Mass appropriate today by many people) there were detractors that though his music was too modern.

Composers were asked by the heirarchy to produce music. There was no “pop” music. Music, in fact, was usually associated with worship.

Will we attract more teens and young adults to the Mass with modern music or with the ‘old standards’?

We’d probably attract everybody if we showed movies during Mass

Or do we tell them to sit down and be quiet?

No, we Catechize them.

What would Jesus do? He seemed to be fond of braking away from tradition if it made it easier to love God and neighbor.

A dangerous remark, if I may say. Jesus didn’t “break away” from anything but hypocrisy and hatred and worship oriented towards showing off. Tradition he loved and respected - not only as a Jew but as God who divinely commanded certain traditions. There is no merit in novelty for novelties sake. I understand you are suggesting we break from Tradition to make it easier to love God - but I believe this is just incorrect thinking. It it easier to love God in a reverent atmosphere and appropriate setting and conduct the way our Bishops see fit. Your own particular spiritually needn’t be trodden on however, if you are charismatic you have outlets in the Church.

 

[Monica4316]

Here is a long article on music by Pope Benedict… seems he does prefer Gregorian chant above other types of music. certainly secular sounding music is not appropriate.
ceciliaschola.org/notes/benedictonmusic.html

here’s a video about secular vs sacred music at the Mass, quoting Church documents:
youtube.com/watch?v=9XTHFbM4ZFM

 

[Cristiano]

Composers were asked by the heirarchy to produce music. There was no “pop” music. Music, in fact, was usually associated with worship…

Are you saying that things that we consider now “classical” music like opera were not considered “pop” music at the time?

 

[NewsTheMan]

Are you saying that things that we consider now “classical” music like opera were not considered “pop” music at the time?

Yes I am saying that. Roll your eyes all you like. Pop is a genre. Certainly it was contemporary, but it wasn’t considered “pop”. It was music commissioned for the sacred liturgy precisely because it reflected the sacred and mystical elements of the Mass.

 

[Cat]

I think chant sounds secular. It got popular back in the 1980s, didn’t it? Some group of monks did some recordings and it got a lot of airplay.

 

[MarkThompson]

I think chant sounds secular. It got popular back in the 1980s, didn’t it? Some group of monks did some recordings and it got a lot of airplay.

You are no doubt thinking of the 1994 release of the album Chant by the Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo de Silos.

 

[EasterJoy]

I bet 200 years ago when Mozart was creating his Sacred Music (that I am sure is considered very Mass appropriate today by many people) there were detractors that though his music was too modern. Will we attract more teens and young adults to the Mass with modern music or with the ‘old standards’? Or do we tell them to sit down and be quiet? What would Jesus do? He seemed to be fond of braking away from tradition if it made it easier to love God and neighbor.

Perhaps, but Mozart wrote his Masses to sound different than The Magic Flute. There is nothing wrong with new sacred music, per se. New or old, though, the character of music for Mass by rights ought to be sacred, not secular. I think Mozart would be the first to be appalled at someone who thought the same music ought to be heard at Mass as at the opera.

I take issue with the common and casual presumption that making the music at Mass sound like something from a high school dance, let alone a marketting gimmick, makes it “easier to love God and neighbor.” What evidence is there that music such as the OP described has the effect of increasing virtue at all, in anyone? Can we safely assume that the music we like to dance to–or that puts us into the mood to buy things!!–will bring our hearts to a prayerful attitude before the Creator of the Universe and the Author of the Moral Law? Will insisting on music that asks nothing of us really prompt us to put others before ourselves? Why would we assume that merely getting someone physically into a church to do nothing other than what they enjoy will have a positive effect on their souls? Why would that change their habit of thought or behavior at all?

You may as well say that if our children won’t eat what is good for them, but will refuse anything that is not dessert, then we should feed them nothing but sweets, because God wouldn’t want them to go hungry. That’s a false proposition if ever there was one. Parents who give into it cheat their children, don’t they? The kids’ bellies are full and they are “happy”, but they are not nourished. It is a form of neglect.

It could very well be that if Jesus were to react directly to some of the music that is being foisted off on the Holy and Divine Liturgy, the Sacred Mysteries, the Memorial of His Passion, Death and Resurrection, his response to finding Calvary’s hill being made into a dance hall or a billboard might be similar to that when he found the Temple being made into a marketplace. “Zeal for your house will consume me.” (John 2:14)

Obviously, he did not think that “getting them in the door” was the highest good, or that great stock should be put in those who only want to be catered to: “While he was in Jerusalem for the feast of Passover, many began to believe in his name when they saw the signs he was doing. But Jesus would not trust himself to them because he knew them all, and did not need anyone to testify about human nature. He himself understood it well.” John 2:24-25

 

[dconklin]

I take issue with the common and casual presumption that making the music at Mass sound like something from a high school dance, let alone a marketting gimmick, makes it “easier to love God and neighbor.” What evidence is there that music such as the OP described has the effect of increasing virtue at all, in anyone? Can we safely assume that the music we like to dance to–or that puts us into the mood to buy things!!–will bring our hearts to a prayerful attitude before the Creator of the Universe and the Author of the Moral Law? Will insisting on music that asks nothing of us really prompt us to put others before ourselves?

It is my guess you are not familiar with much of the contemporary/popular (pop) Catholic music being offered for use at Mass. Check out this gentelman: mattmahermusic.com/music.php While it is popular with the youth, it does not have the high school dance vibe nor seem like a marketing gimmick. We took our youth to a Catholic youth conference last summer and Matt played. Our youth still talk about him and the wonderful messages they receive from his songs and how they like to sing it to share the same messages. Sacred music’s intention is to praise and honor God. If they enjoy singing it with full gusto, I do not see any harm in that. God is timeless. I doubt he prefers music from era over another. He does care that we joyfully praise Him.

Why would we assume that merely getting someone physically into a church to do nothing other than what they enjoy will have a positive effect on their souls? Why would that change their habit of thought or behavior at all?

:bigyikes: Are you really asking this? Shame-shame! If they participate in the sacraments, the graces they receive will help them so much in their early lives as they develop into wonderful Catholic adults. If they attentively listen to the Word they are only growing closer to God. For that manner, many of these songs are based on the scriptures in the Lectionary.

As a long-time youth minister, I respectfully ask you to give them a break and not assume they are all simply creatures of “habit of thought or behavior” but see them as children of God.

 

[waterbender]

:banghead: :bigyikes:!!!

And this is a National Shrine!!

Pray to end Liturgical Abuse!

“indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists.”
-Pope St. Pius X
on anyone who tries to rob us of our patrimony, our sacred gift - The liturgy and Tradition!

Amen?

hi,

so is this a post to complain and seek kudos from supporters of your line of thinking?

What National Shrine is this you are speaking of?

 

[TheMc]

I think chant sounds secular. It got popular back in the 1980s, didn’t it? Some group of monks did some recordings and it got a lot of airplay.

That doesn’t mean it is secular. That just means that people are getting popular selling sacred music.

Chant, by definition, sacred music, and the highest form of music.

 

[micahmike]

OP, how did the Preist respond to your concerns when you aired them to him? You did, of course, talk to the Priest about what you thought were abuses before complaining about it on a webforum, right?

 

[EasterJoy]

It is my guess you are not familiar with much of the contemporary/popular (pop) Catholic music being offered for use at Mass. Check out this gentelman: mattmahermusic.com/music.php While it is popular with the youth, it does not have the high school dance vibe nor seem like a marketing gimmick. We took our youth to a Catholic youth conference last summer and Matt played. Our youth still talk about him and the wonderful messages they receive from his songs and how they like to sing it to share the same messages. Sacred music’s intention is to praise and honor God. If they enjoy singing it with full gusto, I do not see any harm in that. God is timeless. I doubt he prefers music from era over another. He does care that we joyfully praise Him.

:bigyikes: Are you really asking this? Shame-shame! If they participate in the sacraments, the graces they receive will help them so much in their early lives as they develop into wonderful Catholic adults. If they attentively listen to the Word they are only growing closer to God. For that manner, many of these songs are based on the scriptures in the Lectionary.

As a long-time youth minister, I respectfully ask you to give them a break and not assume they are all simply creatures of “habit of thought or behavior” but see them as children of God.

The OP said, “Besides the fact the entrance song sounded like a '90s toothpaste commercial, and the rest of the music was hip and rocky”. You want to know if it is OK when music for Mass sounds like a toothpaste commercial? :bigyikes: Are you really asking this?

I tried to be clear that new music is not bad, per se. I will stand by the stance that the faithful, no matter what their age, are robbed of their birthright and their necessary sustenance when Mass is made into entertainment. I want our youth to have reverent Masses in which they have a chance for interior quiet. I want them to have Masses where they can join with their fellow Catholics in a sense of reverential awe for the Almighty God. For that I should be ashamed?

While I would not say that chant is the only music appropriate for Mass, it is wrong to imply that the Psalms are the Psalms are the Psalms, no matter what music you set them to. On top of that, there is a great deal of music played at Mass (some as old as the hills, as in some of the Protestant hymns) which are not only not Scriptural, but are theologically incorrect.

I am not criticizing the youth. They don’t have authority to choose the music. They don’t have the authority to decide on that it is OK to come to the youth Mass in a dirty baseball uniform or in soccer cleats. They didn’t make up the idea that the Mass is equally efficacious not matter what music is chosen, no matter whether there is a moment of quiet from the time they enter the church until they leave, no matter what kind of interior disposition a person has.

“Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.” Benedict XVI

Our youth deserve better. It is time they get it.

 

[EasterJoy]

As a long-time youth minister, I respectfully ask you to give them a break and not assume they are all simply creatures of “habit of thought or behavior” but see them as children of God.

I forgot to speak to this comment. I’m not certain why you took my comments as an attack on youth. It wasn’t meant to be that.

You are a creature with habits of thought and behavior. I am a creature with habits of thought and behavior. So are our youth. We are all assailed all day long every day with messages that turn those habits away from God, primarily in order to inflame our desires and turn us into consumers, but also to turn us towards the wrong-headed modernistic ideal of the Almighty Individual. We are assailed all day long with rejection of the traditional only because it is traditional, with a worship of novelty for novelty’s sake. We are surrounded with sound, and we are surrounded by attempts to catch our attention and entertain us. We aren’t often asked to quiet down and question the way our thoughts and habits of behavior have been taking us.

It is not true that a person will be filled with graces and made into a saint if they can only be induced to physically be present every week while Mass takes place. Rather, if familiarity does not fan ardor, familiarity will breed complacency.

 

[TheMc]

I doubt he prefers music from [one] era over another. He does care that we joyfully praise Him.

And he has said that the best way to praise him is through gregorian chant, polyphony, and similar music.

The church cares about liturgical music because He cares about liturgical music.

I would be very, very careful when talking about what God “prefers”. For the Christian faithful today, his voice is the church, and this church has spoken very clearly on sacred music, and how The LORD wishes to be worshiped through the Mass.