vaccines!

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sherimarie said:
cogforlife.org/vaccines-abortions/

That is a link to read about whether using aborted babies to make vaccines causes more babies to die.

I’m gonna look into my crystal ball and say this will give rise to someone saying “this fetus died 40 years ago”!and"the church says we have an obligation to get that vaccine and save lives!"

You do realize this vaccine was nothing more than a Frankenstine experiment? They already had a fine measles vaccine up and running. You know when they indroduced the new one? The same time the autism rate started to rise.

Or was it the same time sour cream was invented? …🤷
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I’m grateful that this has pointed out that this cell line was created for the rubella vaccine and not the measles, like I’ve been saying in discussions. :doh2:

It’s the rubella vaccine with the morality question, but I believe rubella, measles, and mumps are only vaccinated all together (MMR), and that the individual vaccines are not currently available, so that must be why the measles vaccine is discussed in association with this issue. (Going off of memory, someone please correct me if that’s not correct!)

I also thought that was interesting in that they described the process similar to organ donation - the patient is dead no matter what you do (of course the circumstances of deaths from abortion are preventable and have no reason to occur). Not exactly on topic, but if a murder victim is an organ donor, and the timing and location works out where organs can be harvested, we (general “we” on a societal level) can still benefit. Of course, that’s a bit of a stretch, even for a hypothetical, and a fetus isn’t able to decide if they want to be an organ donor and give consent, etc. Just rambling thinking out loud here, not trying to justify any abortions/murders if that isn’t clear.
 
Yeah, It’s an issue now because of the Measles out break. Merck could release a single dose but they haven’t.
The fetal cell line is also used in a few others but you can get alternate vaccines for them.

I appreciate the time you put into trying to understand this.
 
sherimarie said:
I clicked on that link, anyone else can save themselves the time it had nothing to do with the discussion. You people do revel in killing time!

:rolleyes:

These charts do not show a fleeting haphazard, one and done correlation. They track in the same way for every state and various different countries.

look at it.
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I’m sure this was about the link I posted (tylervigen.com/) and of course that was tongue in cheek, but at the same time I think things like that should stop us from making assumptions about a comparison of two random factors happening in a world where a million other contributions exist.

Can they show possible points of interest? Can it sometimes just mean two things happened to appear related based on a chart? Can it sometimes mean things are worth looking into? Is that different from them proving that there is a link? Is that different from proving that factor a is the reason that factor b is happening? If the general consensus of experts on an issue have examined a correlation and found that the issues are not related, should non-experts looking at charts and seeing a correlation believe the lines on a chart more than what the consensus of experts believe? 🤷
 
sherimarie said:
Yeah, It’s an issue now because of the Measles out break. Merck could release a single dose but they haven’t.
The fetal cell line is also used in a few others but you can get alternate vaccines for them.

I appreciate the time you put into trying to understand this.
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And the petition going around is to reintroduce the measles and mumps as single vaccines (or perhaps a MM vaccine?) and eliminate the rubella from that combo, instead of asking to find an alternative to the rubella vaccination? Is that correct?

But this is still a separate issue from autism, correct? Unless, as you said you do before, you believe the link is specifically in the rubella vaccination. So an MM vaccine, by your thinking, should be fully safe and no one who is medically capable should have any reason to avoid getting it (unless their religion/belief system is against the idea of immunizations in general)?
 
pnewton said:
More Sound Choice stuff. You said earlier:

As I said earlier, confirmation bias makes sites promoting a single issue useless for investigating that issue. That is why medical information is better from a diverse group of established medical organizations, like the CDC, WHO and major hospitals and universities. Moral information should be from sites that are either part of the Catholic Church or an approved lay apostolate under the supervision of some bishop.
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👍 EXACTLY! I look at the sources of statistics as if I had to use them in a graduate thesis. If I couldn’t use the stats in a credible paper, then I certainly wouldn’t use them in forming an educated conclusion, especially when my decision could possibly affect the health of other individuals. We live in a wonderful age when public health issues no longer include such horrible diseases as smallpox, Typhoid, Yellow Fever or Polio, much less the MMRP ones. I seriously doubt that a huge majority of the population in North America (and the world as a whole) want to return to those days before inoculation. When “urban legends” put the health of millions of people at risk, then we have a problem of emmence proportions.
 
pnewton said:
I am not an epidemiologist. I do not think I am allowed to conduct medical research. I humbly must acknowledge that I have to rely on trusted professionals.
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If you can read, you can research. There are many medical journals and peer reviewed medical studies available to you online, some free and some for a small fee. They’re written by trusted professionals. You can do all the reading and research on the topic you want. There are even dictionaries online that you can use when you don’t understand some of the words in the research papers.
 
I was just wondering if anyone had a good guess for what might be causing the uptick in autism rates? If it’s not vccines is there another culprit? Or are you going to buck the cdc on this one and say the 1 in 80 number is all made up?

You threw some brilliant suggestions out there earlier (sour cream, the internet… ) maybe you have a better idea though? 😛
 
sherimarie said:
I was just wondering if anyone had a good guess for what might be causing the uptick in autism rates? If it’s not vccines is there another culprit? Or are you going to buck the cdc on this one and say the 1 in 80 number is all made up?

You threw some brilliant suggestions out there earlier (sour cream, the internet… ) maybe you have a better idea though? 😛
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This is a distraction. There are many things that we do not know. That does not mean the things we don’t know are explained by the first idea that pops into your head. There is a difference between something being theoretically possible and being likely,
 
LeafByNiggle said:
This is a distraction. There are many things that we do not know. That does not mean the things we don’t know are explained by the first idea that pops into your head. There is a difference between something being theoretically possible and being likely,
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Autism is a very wide spectrum. The apparent rise in its incidence could simply be down to better understanding and diagnoses where in the past many sufferers would have been left to cope in the world on their own.

There may also be environmental factors at play as well, but vaccines are not one of them: any suggestions that they are have been thoroughly and roundly debunked.
 
sherimarie said:
So you people won’t except data from the cdc? And a graph that shows the start point for the new vaccines and the autism rate rate rising in unison in every state and country where they are introduced is simply what…?

Causation is explained nicely in the June 2013 newsletter.

It makes sense to me. Besides countering with a denial of facts, do you have any better argument?
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Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy…because of that, not necessarily this…

Like others have mentioned, correlation does not always mean causation.
 
Let it play. This needs to be talked about.

Many people have put forth that the autism/vaccine link has been debunked. That is not true for the fetal cell line vaccines. Those are the ones that you can see a positive change point with the autism rate. Please don’t go off on me about “not the same thing” I know that doesn’t mean causation. It is however a red flag, it should inspire further research.

There is a marked incline in the autism rate, you may not atribute it to vaccines but it is now 1 in 80 or greater.
 
sherimarie said:
Let it play. This needs to be talked about.

Many people have put forth that the autism/vaccine link has been debunked. That is not true for the fetal cell line vaccines. Those are the ones that you can see a positive change point with the autism rate. Please don’t go off on me about “not the same thing” I know that doesn’t mean causation. It is however a red flag, it should inspire further research.

There is a marked incline in the autism rate, you may not atribute it to vaccines but it is now 1 in 80 or greater.
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There are several things contributing to an apparent increase in autism as well as an actual one. Foremost is the understanding that autism is one piece in a spectrum of disorders ranging from Aspergers’ quirky people to wasting disorders that claim children before the age of six. These people can have any IQ just like the neurologically typical. As recently as the 1990’s, people with autism, pervasive learning disorder or other spectrum disorders were just thrown in with people who had mental retardation (and were counted as such when institutions and group homes surveyed the disabilities people in their care have,) regardless of what their IQ or abilities were. This understanding has led to medical professionals, pediatricians in particular, having tools, questions, diagnostic criteria to make diagnosis early in a child’s life instead of when the child is failing kindergarten.

The human genome project has contributed greatly to the understanding of Spectrum Disorder. Unlike Downs syndrome (for example) where there’s an addition in one gene and it is always expressed, Spectrum Disorder involves multiple genes, any combination of which can be dormant or expressed. More combinations than not are benign, therefore people procreate, pass on the array of genes on. One thing the HGP has discovered is the array of genes we’re talking about here, protects against certain aggressive cancers. This protection offered by the array of genes would allow this population to increase in number and also increase the number of people with Spectrum Disorder.

Finally, a correlation has been made between autism spectrum disorder and older (over 50) fathers. They first thought the genetic degradation might be the cause but studies found that sperm that developed genetic deletions over time and were just not viable and did not result in conception. The thinking now is that the lower motility of older sperm exposes the newly conceived to either microbiological or chemical pollutants that cause more of the genes in this array to be expressed.

This is really new research that can be found on Medscape Genetics. It’s kind of exciting. They are finding that the environmental factors causing more of array to be expressed are in utero, not after birth. Medscape is another good place to go for peer reviewed articles on thermisol.
 
There were people diagnosed with AD going back to the 50s that I know of personally. They do tend to reevaluate them, even the older ones. There is no reason to factor older men into the equation unless it’s true that so many older men are fathering children now than they did 50, 60 years ago.

let’s hope they don’t find a genetic factor to make the preborn baby more of a target than they already are.
 
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