Validity of None-Tridentine Mass

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Ahakista

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I am married father of 3 and married 21 years. I have been a Catholic all my life, and have raised my children in the faith.

I have questions concerning the validity of non-Latin masses, as I recently had a close friend who passed away. He did not believe in the validity of the current mass, instead insisting that the Tridentine Mass was the only valid mass or the pre-Vatican II mass was the only valid mass. I am looking for answers on this issue. Please post your thoughts.

Ahakista
 
I do not wish to profane your friends memory, but his view is wrong.

The Novus Ordo Mass is 100% Valid.
 
I am married father of 3 and married 21 years. I have been a Catholic all my life, and have raised my children in the faith.

I have questions concerning the validity of non-Latin masses, as I recently had a close friend who passed away. He did not believe in the validity of the current mass, instead insisting that the Tridentine Mass was the only valid mass or the pre-Vatican II mass was the only valid mass. I am looking for answers on this issue. Please post your thoughts.

Ahakista
The Novus Ordo in Latin, offered according to the rubrics is presumed to be valid, short of a binding declaration resolving the dispute on the necessary form for consecration. Aquinas viewed the longer consecration as necessary. Bonaventure viewed the shorter “This is my body” “This is my blood” as the minimum necessary. The Church leans toward Bonaventure’s view in its documents.

The trouble comes in the vernacular translations, and the problem of intention. Some priests are so badly formed, they have no proper intention. Also, in some parishes, improper matter was used. This isn’t a “trad” thing. Fr. Corapi on EWTN made it very public and supported it with Vatican coroborration.

And of course, the approved rites of the East when offered with proper form, matter and intention are also valid.

All of this presupposes the valid ordination of the priests. But you should have the presumption that your priests are valid unless something serious leads you to question it. God doesn’t ask the impossible of us in determining things.

Charles Coulombe tells a story about a bishop in California in the 50’s or 60’s who on his deathbed confessed that he had deliberately witheld the intention to ordain priests. All of the priests he’d non-ordained were conditionally re-ordained and some of them actually had breakdowns.
 
Some people draw that conclusion due to the mistranslation of the words of consecration that takes place in most, if not all, mass said in the vernacular.

Rome recently came out and commanded that the mistranslation be corrected, but it is still incorrect in English. The organization that is responsible for translating the Mass from Latin to English is doing everything it can to drag its feet. About two years ago Rome gave them 2 years to correct the translation. Now the group is claiming that it will not have the error corrected until 2011.

I’ll give you the argument in a nutshell.

The English version of the consecration for the Precious Blood translated the Latins words “pro multis” which mean “for many” as “for all”. Now, I’ll give you a few quotes that will show why some people believe that this mistranslation invalidates the Mass.

The first quote comes from the Catechism of the Council of Trent:
Catechism of Trent: Form To Be Used In The Consecration Of The Wine:

"With regard to the consecration of the wine, which is the other element of this Sacrament, the priest, for the reason we have already assigned, ought of necessity to be well acquainted with, and well understand its form. We are then firmly to believe that is consists in the following words: This is the chalice of My blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many, to the remission of sins.

"Thus the words, this is the chalice, are found in St. Luke and in the Apostle;(but the words that immediately follow, of my blood or my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for you and for many to the remission of sins are found partly in St. Luke and partly in St. Matthew . But the words, eternal and the mystery of faith, have been taught us by holy tradition the interpreter and keeper of Catholic truth.

"Concerning this form no one can doubt, if he here also attend to what has been already said about the form used in the consecration of the bread. The form to be used (in the consecration) of this element, evidently consists of those words which signify that the substance of the wine is changed into the blood of Our Lord. Since, therefore, the words already cited clearly declare this, it is plain that no other words constitute the form…

Explanation Of The Form Used In The Consecration Of The Wine:

"…The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all
, but to many of the human race. When therefore (Our Lord) said: For you, He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from amoung the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, And for many, He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect * from among the Jews and Gentiles.*

With reason, therefore, were the words For all not used, as in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle whenhe says: Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; and also of the words of Our Lord in John: I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou has given me, because they are thine."

St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the Church, taught the same in his book The Holy Eucharist.

St. Alphonsus Liguori: “The words Pro vobis et pro multis (“For you and for many”) are used to distinguish the virtue of the Blood of Christ from its fruits; for the Blood of our Savior is of sufficient value to save all men, but its fruits are applicable only to a certain number and not to all, and this is their own fault. Or, as the theologians say, this Precious Blood is (in itself) sufficiently (sufficienter) able to save all men, but (on our part) effectually (efficaciter) it does not save all — it saves only those who cooperate with grace. This is the explanation of St. Thomas, as quoted by Benedict XIV.” END

Now, regarding defects that would invalidate the sacrament, the Council of Florence said this:

Council of Florence, De Defectibus: “Defects on the part of the form can happen when something is lacking which is required for the integrity of the words in the consecration itself. Thus the words of Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are the following: Hoc est enim Corpus meum. And: Hic est enim Calix Sanguinis mei, novi et aeterni testamenti: mysterium fidei qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum. Thus if anyone should shorten anything, or should change anything in the form of consecration of the Body and Blood, and if, by the change, the words do not signify the same thing, he would not confect the Sacrament. If in fact anyone should add or subtract anything, which would not change the meaning, he would indeed confect it, but would sin most gravely.” END

The Council teaches that if a word is changed in such a way that the new word does not express the same meaning as the original, the sacrament would be is invalid. Since the Catechism of Trent specifically stated that “for all” is not to be used, it is very difficult to argue that “for all” and “for many” mean the same thing. Therefore, the conclusion of some is that the mistranslation invalidates the Mass.

That’s probably what your friend based his belief on.
 
I am married father of 3 and married 21 years. I have been a Catholic all my life, and have raised my children in the faith.

I have questions concerning the validity of non-Latin masses, as I recently had a close friend who passed away. He did not believe in the validity of the current mass, instead insisting that the Tridentine Mass was the only valid mass or the pre-Vatican II mass was the only valid mass. I am looking for answers on this issue. Please post your thoughts.

Ahakista
The Vatican’s authority outweighs your friend’s opinion.
 
And what did your friend think of the Mozarabic or Ambrosian Masses?

How about the Eucharistic Liturgies of the Eastern Churches (whether in union with Rome or not)?

Did he think they were invalid?

Or did he even know about them?
 
Seems that the Vatican has created the doubt of validity, not the friend.
That’s an interesting perspective. I hadn’t really picked up on the Vatican causing doubts about validity, but I have picked up on a new relativeness creeping in as a result of the the current reform of the reform - that some masses are “better” than others; that we no longer simply have “the mass”.

I don’t think it was the Vatican’s intention to make the value of the mass a relative value; I am sure they would still say “the mass is the mass”. But it is clear from forums such as this that people do now think of the different forms of the mass as being better or worse.
 
Let me clarify myself a little. Actually the ICEL created the doubt of validity, whether it was intentional or not. As Pope Paul was not well versed in English, he trusted that commission for validity. But just like calling the Mass a memorial or however he worded it, it was perhaps a very big mistake on his part. Now it seems the Vatican has acknowledged that mistake, adding further to the doubt of validity, Vatican statements to the contrary notwithstanding.

I’d be curious as to what percentage of English-speaking Catholics (church goers and non-church goers) have absolute (100%) certitude of the validity of the English Mass.
 
And what did your friend think of the Mozarabic or Ambrosian Masses?

How about the Eucharistic Liturgies of the Eastern Churches (whether in union with Rome or not)?

Did he think they were invalid?

Or did he even know about them?
I don’t think that he’s talking about non-Latin Masses in the sense of the liturgies used in different rites and sui juris churches. He’s talking about “non-Latin” Masses of the Latin Rite whose vernacular translations could be viewed by some as altering the meaning of the Latin.
 
I wanted to reiterate what GeraldP said.

Without a doubt, some Novus Ordo Mass have been invalid. There have been at least two diocese in the US that used invalid matter for years. The Diocese of Cincinnati OH was one; and, as Gerald said, Father Corapi mentioned another one on the east coast (although he didn’t tell which one). If I am not mistaken, one of these diocese used invalid matter FOR 10 YEARS.

All that time, the only Catholics in those diocese who went to a valid Mass were the Traditionalists, such as the SSPX, who were out of normal relations with Rome; and anyone who attended Eucharistic adoration was adoring bread and nothing more.

I’ll never forget listening to Mother Angelica when someone called in and said “Mother, last Sunday Father consecrated a Cake at Mass. Was that calid”? Mother Angelica, withi complete disgust in her voice, said: Honey, you got nothin".

For those who don’t know, the “matter” of the eucharist is the bread. It has to be actual bread. Only bread can be transubstantiated into the body of Christ. Thus, if anything is added to the “recipe”, it bcomes something other than bread and the change does not take place. Thus you have an invalid Mass; or NO Mass (pun intended).

I wonder how many diocese in the U.S today are using invalid matter today? After all, it took 10 years before it was discovered in one diocese. This is what happens when you have wolves in sheeps clothing running the Church.

This reminds me of a quote from St. John Eudes. He says that the greatest punishment God can inflict on his people is giving them corrupt leaders and Priest. He also said that this is a sure sign that God was extremely angry with His people.

We deserve the punishment we have received. Fortunately, God has provided a few safe havens during this crisis. But if you attend Mass at one of the “safe havens”, you will have to suffer ridicule and name calling - but it’s worth it.
 
That’s an interesting perspective. I hadn’t really picked up on the Vatican causing doubts about validity, but I have picked up on a new relativeness creeping in as a result of the the current reform of the reform - that some masses are “better” than others; that we no longer simply have “the mass”.

I don’t think it was the Vatican’s intention to make the value of the mass a relative value; I am sure they would still say “the mass is the mass”. But it is clear from forums such as this that people do now think of the different forms of the mass as being better or worse.
That would be SOME people. Doubt comes from Satan, not from the Vatican.
 
That would be SOME people. Doubt comes from Satan, not from the Vatican.
I have a question. During the 10 years when “masses” were invalid in the diocese of Cincinnati, if a lay person discovered the unusual recipe for the hosts, and subsequently had doubts about the validity of the masses where this “bread” was being used, would those doubts have come from the devil?

When someone doubts an article of the faith, that is from the devil; but when someone has doubts based on something that is objectively doubtful, it would be wrong to attribute such doubts to the devil.
 
I have a question. During the 10 years when “masses” were invalid in the diocese of Cincinnati, if a lay person discovered the unusual recipe for the hosts, and subsequently had doubts about the validity of the masses where this “bread” was being used, would those doubts have come from the devil?

When someone doubts an article of the faith, that is from the devil; but when someone has doubts based on something that is objectively doubtful, it would be wrong to attribute such doubts to the devil.
Doubts regarding the holiness of the Church - come from the devil.
 
I’ve seen raisins in communion bread. I guess when I had doubts about the validity of the Sacrament, the devil was planting them.
 
Doubts regarding the holiness of the Church - come from the devil.
It depends what you mean by the holiness of the Church. You are correct that the Church is holy and unspotted, but not in its members.

During the Arian crisis when almost all of the Bishops were heretics, and when even the Pope signed a semi-Arian forumla, the Church was still holy, although it was very corrupt in its members. Those who were strong in the faith at the time stayed away from the local Churches because, as St. Basil the Great - who lived at the time - said: “they would have nothing to do with the wicken Arian level”.

So too today there are many who stay away from the local Churches because “they will have nothing to do with the wicken Liberal/Modernist leaven”.

The Church is indefectible, but some times - as a punishement for sins - God allows the “gates of hell” to do a lot of damage. And that is the case today, as I don’t think anyone in their right mind would deny.
 
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