Vasectomy and respecting my wife's catholic faith

[Rico_S]

Here you go. Divorce rate among non-contracepting couples who use NFP in the USA is 0.2%.

physiciansforlife.org/content/view/193/36/

Show causation.

I don’t dispute your figures…your presentation of them is just misleading. Practicing NFP is not the reason these marriages hold together…which is what your unstated implication when presenting these numbers. I won’t deny there is likely some marriage enrichment that goes along with NFP, which is fantastic…but it alone does not account for the astounding descrepancy in divorce rates, and to imply that it does is disingenuous (or it is done out of ignorance–if you are just quoting stats from pro NFP websites–yes, even righteous causes use propaganda!). Those who choose to use NFP do so b/c they have a completely different moral warehouse than the average couple. And that moral warehouse, their view of marriage and life, leads them to pracitce NFP…and it also leads them to believe that divorce is only rarely acceptable. It isn’t like a random couple who suddenly chooses to embrace the NFP method out of the blue will now have a miniscule chance of divorce.

I would imagine that if we conducted a statistical analysis of the divorce rates of those to make the sign of the cross more than 40 times a week vs. the average US couple, there would be a significant difference in the divorce rates of the 2 groups…agreed? Do you see the logical disconnect?

-Rico

 

[adamsapple]

Hi everyone -

Here’s my background - I’m an evangelical Christian and my wife is Roman Catholic. We currently have 3 children together. We have attempted to practice natural family planning, although our 3 children were conceived while we were trying to prevent conception with NFP - my wife and I went to all the NFP classes and according to the instructor, we were following the NFP rules correctly. We are at a point now where we do not even have intercourse due to not trusting the NFP method and not taking birth control pills due to the Catholic teachings against it, which I respect on her behalf.

We both are seemingly not as close as we used to be due to this lack of physical intimacy. I’ve personally been discussing getting a vasectomy with her, but of course she is against due to her religious beliefs. Most evangelical / protestant churches do not condone or speak against birth control - some members use it, others are against it. Vasectomies are pretty much accepted as being ok since it prevents fertilization through sterilization. Since it’s really my body that would have to go through the procedure, and my personal faith does not specifically speak of the procedure as a sin, would my wife be sinning if I go through with the operation with her knowing? What if I don’t tell her? - this is hypothetical, as I would surely tell her before I went through with it.

Just wanted to get your opinions on this situation as I would like to respect my wife’s beliefs, but it’s almost pushed me over the edge and has hindered our marriage due to catch-22 situation we are in.

thanks

NFP doesn’t work for everyone simply because of biological differences in human physiology. My best advice to you is to either accept new children into your life or abstain from relations with your wife completely. There’s only one sure way to avoid pregnancy and that is abstinence.
It’s a difficult reality to face but face it you must.

 

[kage_ar]

How about these ones:

CCC
(first half) 2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign.

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2400 Adultery, divorce, polygamy, and free union are grave offenses against the dignity of marriage.

So, what I’m saying is that based on these outspoken writings against divorce, many Catholics are hampered in divorce where the same couple, if they were not Catholic, would maybe have gone ahead with it?

And guys, please…note I said “Could it also be” meaning that I’m wondering about the statistics and their validity…I’m not outright disputing it so that I need to be called out and asked for back-ups…but then, I did it anyway

Huummmmm -

Looks like a backpedal here!

You stated that Catholics are not allowed to divorce.

Then, you looked at the documents and change the tune to “hampered” Might it actually be that you were mistaken in your assumption about the Church and her position on divorce?

Not something to be encouraged, a grave matter, seems like what any rational human being would feel about divorce.

You might want to go on and read:

**2383 **The *separation *of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

 

[AeroChunky]

Huummmmm -

Looks like a backpedal here!

You stated that Catholics are not allowed to divorce.

Then, you looked at the documents and change the tune to “hampered” Might it actually be that you were mistaken in your assumption about the Church and her position on divorce?

Not something to be encouraged, a grave matter, seems like what any rational human being would feel about divorce.

You might want to go on and read:

**2383 **The *separation *of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

Okay, I retract “Hampered”. Not backpedal, maybe just misspoken…

The CCC passages speak out heavily against divorce, it’s a sin of the higest regard.

I interpret these passages to mean that Catholics are not allowed to divorce. And to be clear, I"m talking about divorce in the Catholic sense, not a civil sense.
Good, god-fearing Catholics cannot willingly divorce their spouse. It’s not allowed, it’s grave matter, and doing so willingly points to mortal sin…possibly with the assumption of forgiveness included.
So, their ownly two options are to stay married on the record and live seperately, or to seek an annullment, and that has all kinds of limitations and red tape.

Yeah, the CCC speaks of separation, but that goes to prove my point, that the divorce will not be recorded on the civil books and hence not be counted in the statistics, showing, perhaps falsely, that the NFP-practiving couples (Cahtolics) divorce rate are lower than the average.

 

[agapewolf]

Ok, I have to bring up a point here about those statistics…

I heard these statistics at a talk by a priest in K.C. in 2001. I wrote them down exactly has he had them up on the visual aid. IT was a study done in wisconsin…

I Will concede these are older, I will also concede I have no way of linking to the source, however, just perhaps…consider that they might be true…

Marriages end in divorce 50%
married in the church 33%
married in church use NFP 3%
married in church, use, NFP, and go to Mass… 1 %
married in church, use NFP, go to mass, and pray at home together .09%

these seperate the different tendencies of NFP using couples. All the statistics are not necessarily false reports as stated in this thread.

NFP DOES have positive affects to marriages survival. It can change the very nature of the perception of the spouse.

 

[Rico_S]

The divorce rate among Catholics is, sadly, approximately the same as divorce rates overall. The problem is that many people who identify themselves as Catholic do indeed use contraception…

C’mon RPP…that is quite a leap!!! Any research to show that contraception IS THE CAUSE with Catholic divorces?

-Rico

 

[Rico_S]

All the statistics are not necessarily false reports as stated in this thread.

Who said they were false? I just skimmed Aero’s posts and he didn’t. I in fact admitted that the statistics are likely true (perhpas not super accurate, but I don’t think that matters).

The problem is that you are using statistics and trying to conclude something from those statistics that is not logically possible. It is fraudulent and disingenuous.

We should find the divorce rates for couples who receive Holy Eucharist in their mouth and on their knees. What do you think we would find? Yep…probably similar stats to the NFP. Would you try to draw the same conclusion?

How about this…since “Leave it to Beaver” went off the air, divorce rates have skyrocketed from 15-50% and the percentage of children born out of wedlock has risen from 5% to 30%? Clearly we need “Leave it to Beaver” back on the tube!!! Now while this may seem ridiculous, this is the exact thing you are doing with your statistics. Yes, it is much more reasonable to assume that practicing NFP will have some impact on divorce rates than the TV show, but it is not reasonable to assume we know the specific relationship NFP and divorce (causation).

I attended a men’s program called “That Man is You.” It was ok. But they do this exact same thing–quoting generic statistics about how the world if going to hell in a handbasket, then jumping to the conclusion that X is to blame. It really left a bad taste in my mouth. It is nothing more than shameless propaganda and it is intellectually dishonest.

NFP DOES have positive affects to marriages survival. It can change the very nature of the perception of the spouse.

I agree that NFP does likely foster a better relationship, and it may, in some, “change the very nature of the perception of the spouse,” but it is pretty preposterous to argue that the small divorce rate of NFPers is simply due to the practice of NFP. It does not follow.

–Rico

 

[agapewolf]

Who said they were false? I just skimmed Aero’s posts and he didn’t. I in fact admitted that the statistics are likely true (perhpas not super accurate, but I don’t think that matters)

Yeah, the CCC speaks of separation, but that goes to prove my point, that the divorce will not be recorded on the civil books and hence not be counted in the statistics, showing, perhaps falsely, that the NFP-practiving couples (Cahtolics) divorce rate are lower than the average.

 

[Rico_S]

agape:

Originally Posted by AeroChunky

Yeah, the CCC speaks of separation, but that goes to prove my point, that the divorce will not be recorded on the civil books and hence not be counted in the statistics, showing, perhaps falsely, that the NFP-practiving couples (Cahtolics) divorce rate are lower than the average.

Ok, I missed that.

But my point still stands…unchallenged.

–Rico

 

[AeroChunky]

Ok, I maybe stand corrected on taht onw point, but it’s still not apples with apples.

 

[lada]

I just want to respond to the OP and state that I am in the same situation as your wife. My husband had the V three months after the birth of our 4th child. We had talked about it and I let him know that I was not in agreement. I am just now moving back into the Catholic faith, so my decision didn’t hinge on religion, just on my desire for (possibly) more children. Mostly it just wasnt’ a decision I wanted to make while still in the newborn up all night constant nursing no sleep stage of parenthood. NOBODY wants a baby at that point in their lives!

The vasectomy has drastically affected our sex life. I just don’t find him…complete, I guess. I feel like (and tell everyone) that he went and got himself “broken”. We are working on it and trying to get past this, but it’s not what it used to be and I don’t know that it ever will. I hope so. We have talked about a reversal and he is at least willing to entertain the idea if my feelings don’t change.

I can’t explain it, really. I’m not necessarily against contraception but it affected me in spite of myself.

I would caution you to really listen to your wife and her concerns. Don’t make this decision on your own. If your really can’t afford any more children now, use another form of BC until you are both sure. This is forever, and going back to change it is not going to be easy.

 

[PennitentMan]

I just want to respond to the OP and state that I am in the same situation as your wife. My husband had the V three months after the birth of our 4th child. We had talked about it and I let him know that I was not in agreement. I am just now moving back into the Catholic faith, so my decision didn’t hinge on religion, just on my desire for (possibly) more children. Mostly it just wasnt’ a decision I wanted to make while still in the newborn up all night constant nursing no sleep stage of parenthood. NOBODY wants a baby at that point in their lives!

The vasectomy has drastically affected our sex life. I just don’t find him…complete, I guess. I feel like (and tell everyone) that he went and got himself “broken”. We are working on it and trying to get past this, but it’s not what it used to be and I don’t know that it ever will. I hope so. We have talked about a reversal and he is at least willing to entertain the idea if my feelings don’t change.

I can’t explain it, really. I’m not necessarily against contraception but it affected me in spite of myself.

I would caution you to really listen to your wife and her concerns. Don’t make this decision on your own. If your really can’t afford any more children now, use another form of BC until you are both sure. This is forever, and going back to change it is not going to be easy.

Hi Lada.

Thanks for the open and honest post.

Just from my own life experiences, I wanted to tell you to use caution in the road ahead.

I’m not going to defend your husband’s decision, but I will only say that he probably did it for (what he thinks) the good of the family.

I hear what you are saying that your point of view changed towards sex, but this is a crucial time in your marriage now. Please be open with your husband, try to understand him, try not to let this influence your sex life, and don’t shut him out.
Guys feel rejection nowhere as fast as their wife denying them sexual intimacy.

Once again, I commend you on posting and verbalizing your feelings, but if I can tell you one thing from my own life experience, it’s to keep being sexually intimate with your husband. If that door is closed, things go south rather fast, in my experience, and those that I spoke to.

Good luck, I hope you work this out.
PM.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

DON’T DO IT!

I had a vasectomy many years ago after having 3 beautiful children and I regret it every day.

I am sure that God wanted to give me more priceless gifts, yet I was incredibly selfish and rejected His love.

Many if not most vasectomies are reversible. You might want to see if you can get yours reversed.

 

[lada]

Hi Lada.

Thanks for the open and honest post.

Just from my own life experiences, I wanted to tell you to use caution in the road ahead.

I’m not going to defend your husband’s decision, but I will only say that he probably did it for (what he thinks) the good of the family.

I hear what you are saying that your point of view changed towards sex, but this is a crucial time in your marriage now. Please be open with your husband, try to understand him, try not to let this influence your sex life, and don’t shut him out.
Guys feel rejection nowhere as fast as their wife denying them sexual intimacy.

Once again, I commend you on posting and verbalizing your feelings, but if I can tell you one thing from my own life experience, it’s to keep being sexually intimate with your husband. If that door is closed, things go south rather fast, in my experience, and those that I spoke to.

Good luck, I hope you work this out.
PM.

Thank you for your thoughts. I have certainly not “shut him off” but the act itself is just missing something.

I also do harbor some resentment as he basically made this decision unilaterally. I kind of feel like he, therefore, has to deal with the fallout. I know that’s a horrible attitude, and I am trying to work on it.