Vatican’s legal chief says desire to change enough for Communion

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I just don’t understand why sacraments are being pitted against each other.
Communion, confession, and marriage are at issue. That’s three out of seven…
 
If no one else does, then maybe I should reconsider whether the Catholic Church is at all what it claims to be.

Because if it isn’t, there’s no point in remaining Christian. If the Church is wrong on this point, she has no authority on anything else. So if this doesn’t blow over and the Church clearly teaches error, then screw everything else, because it’s off to hedonism for me. The only thing that will keep my behaviour in check is civil law.
Hear hear! That’s what I’m doing.
 
The Vatican is trying to allow the bishops and Church to discern the proper role of conscious. conscious and the Eucharist as explained in the legal chief’s book just released today. By the Vatican.

Those who won’t embrace this development in doctrine can’t be allowed to set up places where the Eucharist is denied while in other places the Eucharist is given.

The theology behind the administration of the Eucharist in the case of the divorced/remarried lay faithful can’t be a regional phenomena. If that happens the church effectively becomes Protestant. The Pope needs to formally define this doctrinal development sooner rather than later IMO.
 
ROME- Catholics who find themselves in what the Church considers “non-legitimate” situations, such as being divorced and civilly remarried, can receive Communion as long as they want to change their situation but cannot act on their desire because doing so would lead to further sin.

That’s the final word, at least according to the Vatican’s key interpreter of the law, Italian Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, who was appointed by Benedict XVI in 2007 as President of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts.

According to the Vatican’s constitution, this office’s work “consists mainly in interpreting the laws of the Church.”

However, per his own words, he wrote his new book The Eighth Chapter of the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia not as a canon law expert but to try to “unpack [Amoris’s] rich doctrinal and pastoral message.”

[More…] cruxnow.com/global-church/2017/02/14/vaticans-legal-chief-says-desire-change-enough-communion/
Having just read the article, I have absolutely no idea what
as long as they want to change their situation but cannot act on their desire because doing so would lead to further sin.
…means.

That might be the point, of course.

But if you are already civilly-remarried, all that remains between you and reception of Holy Communion is an annulment and getting the Church to recognise your new marriage. (Obviously I know they’re not just bureaucratic stages in reality, I’m being simplistic, but that’s “all” there is).

Paraphrased, “this might apply to people who want to rectify their marital status(es), but can’t do so because it would be sinful.”

I don’t understand at all… 🤷
 
The Vatican is trying to allow the bishops and Church to discern the proper role of conscious. conscious and the Eucharist as explained in the legal chief’s book just released today. By the Vatican.

Those who won’t embrace this development in doctrine can’t be allowed to set up places where the Eucharist is denied while in other places the Eucharist is given.

The theology behind the administration of the Eucharist in the case of the divorced/remarried lay faithful can’t be a regional phenomena. If that happens the church effectively becomes Protestant. The Pope needs to formally define this doctrinal development sooner rather than later IMO.
He has. Silence speaks loudly.

Lord Jesus Christ,
who said to your apostles,
‘Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you’:
look not on our sins but on the faith of your Church
and grant it the peace and unity of your kingdom;
where you are alive and reign with the Father
in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
one God, now and for ever.
Amen.
 
Wow. That was quick. That’s all it takes?
Throw all of Christianity out the window?

.
Yes. But that is not the case. We just have this versus that but the Magisterium has not erred. Therefore the authority of the Church is still intact.

This boils down to authority. If the Church errs on one matter of faith or morals then it loses authority on everything. It would therefore not worth listening to.

I do not believe this is the case though.
 
Hear hear! That’s what I’m doing.
Don’t cheer me on just yet. My statement was hypothetical. I do NOT believe the Church has erred. None of the stuff issued thus far has fallen under the umbrella of infallibility.

We have only confused faithful, erring bishops and correct bishops. It’s bad but not enough to discredit the Magisterium.

Unfortunately, you have come to a premature and incorrect conclusion. Your action to leave the Church on THIS issue is a mistake.
 
All I have to say to this whole mess is:

Yeah.
Right.
Whatever.

Until there’s clarity from Rome, or a definition ex cathedra, I’m sticking with what the Church has always taught and practiced.

This kind of confusion is helping no one.
This is my view as well. If a friend were to ask me about the Church teaching on communion and divorce and remarriage, I would simply quote the teachings as they have always been. I would not even refer to or consider AL at this point. The section that mentions receiving communion is flawed and confusing and there are too many contradictory interpretations out there from various Church officials.
 
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ChurchSoldier:
He has. Silence speaks loudly.

Lord Jesus Christ,
who said to your apostles,
‘Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you’:
look not on our sins but on the faith of your Church
and grant it the peace and unity of your kingdom;
where you are alive and reign with the Father
in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
one God, now and for ever.
Amen.

True, he has effectively spoken on this but not de fide and that is what is needed. Pope Francis should confirm the faithful in this. Otherwise the teaching of the Church will vary by region and even bishop. Taking away one of the key marks of the Church.

It becomes problematic how the SSPX Society can be incorporated into the Church. But maybe part of the deal is that they accept this teaching - or would accept a formal teaching regarding this from the Pope at a future time.

This more fuller discernment of conscious is the Spirit leading the Church to a more merciful embrace of her children. It does not stand in a vacuum insofar as there are moral issues beyond divorce/re-marriage. What about conscious and contraception?

Or assisted suicide - the Canadian bishops in the east have spoken that with discernment euthanasia is not necessarily a barrier to the sacraments. Using AL as a starting point.

Reinforcing the universality of the Church is critical now. I hope and expect at some point an ex cathedra pronouncement on this further discernment of conscious and how it relates to the moral law - that would be a truly historic development of doctrine for the Church as was infallibility coming out of V1…
 
Wow. That was quick. That’s all it takes?
Throw all of Christianity out the window?
.
If Holy Communion is permitted for the divorced, remarried and sexually active in an official, magisterial capacity it would demonstrate that the Catholic Church is not what it says it is. More specifically, the Church was either lying or deceived when it claimed to be infallible in areas of faith and morals. If the Church is mistaken in this area then it would naturally lead one to conclude that its teachings in other areas are suspect at best.

I suppose one could become Eastern Orthodox, a splinter group of Catholicism, or just another variety of Christian. Those options would be worth investigating. But it one believes for historical and scriptural reasons that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus Christ founded, and if one believes in the promises that accompany that distinction, then I (and others) may have difficulty accepting those traditions as relevant.

It’s hard to say what I would personally do in the event that Catholicism disqualified itself. Many of us have personal encounters with God that would be difficult to dismiss, even in the absence of a religious tradition. But I can see why an individual might relax their behaviour in some areas in the absence of a credible religious tradition.
 
It’s hard to say what I would personally do in the event that Catholicism disqualified itself. Many of us have personal encounters with God that would be difficult to dismiss, even in the absence of a religious tradition. But I can see why an individual might relax their behaviour in some areas in the absence of a credible religious tradition.
True. I will not be able to deny the existence of God, as he is knowable by reason alone. I’m a fairly smart guy and I know that God exists.

But the stuff that has been defined as definitive, such as the Trinity, Incarnation, Redemption, Original Sin, the Bible, as well as the moral law known only by faith, will fall by the wayside, for they are known only by the authority of the Church.

But again, mess as this is, it has not disqualified the infallibility of the Church, and so therefore, it would be a mistake to dismiss it solely on what’s happening today.
 
This is my view as well. If a friend were to ask me about the Church teaching on communion and divorce and remarriage, I would simply quote the teachings as they have always been. I would not even refer to or consider AL at this point. The section that mentions receiving communion is flawed and confusing and there are too many contradictory interpretations out there from various Church officials.
Well, nor should you really. None of us are bishops in charge of determining how to implement AL.
 
True, he has effectively spoken on this but not de fide and that is what is needed. Pope Francis should confirm the faithful in this. Otherwise the teaching of the Church will vary by region and even bishop. Taking away one of the key marks of the Church.

It becomes problematic how the SSPX Society can be incorporated into the Church. But maybe part of the deal is that they accept this teaching - or would accept a formal teaching regarding this from the Pope at a future time.

This more fuller discernment of conscious is the Spirit leading the Church to a more merciful embrace of her children. It does not stand in a vacuum insofar as there are moral issues beyond divorce/re-marriage. What about conscious and contraception?

Or assisted suicide - the Canadian bishops in the east have spoken that with discernment euthanasia is not necessarily a barrier to the sacraments. Using AL as a starting point.

Reinforcing the universality of the Church is critical now. I hope and expect at some point an ex cathedra pronouncement on this further discernment of conscious and how it relates to the moral law - that would be a truly historic development of doctrine for the Church as was infallibility coming out of V1…
The Church has taught consistently that:
–marriage is permanent for life.
–Artificial contraception is a grave wrong.
–Euthanasia and assisted suicide are gravely evil.
–Homosexual actions are wrong.
–Sex outside of the marital bond of wrong.

These teachings will not change.
The Holy Spirit does not teach contradictory moral law.
 
I suppose one could become Eastern Orthodox
The Orthodox permit, as a concession to human weakness and out of mercy in certain cases, an ecclesiastical divorce and re-marriage.
It’s hard to say what I would personally do in the event that Catholicism disqualified itself. Many of us have personal encounters with God that would be difficult to dismiss, even in the absence of a religious tradition. But I can see why an individual might relax their behaviour in some areas in the absence of a credible religious tradition.
I can see that too but this is not what the individual said.

He claimed he would become a “hedonist”, not simply that he might change his views on a few lifestyle choices. That’s qualitatively different to what your saying.

You do not have to have a religious bone on your body to see that hedonism does not lead to actual happiness or well-being, its a well-recognised thing in psychology:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_hedonism
**The paradox of hedonism, also called the pleasure paradox, refers to the practical difficulties encountered in the pursuit of pleasure. Unfortunately for the hedonist, constant pleasure-seeking may not yield the most actual pleasure or happiness in the long run—or even in the short run, when consciously pursuing pleasure interferes with experiencing it.
The philosopher Henry Sidgwick was first to note in The Methods of Ethics that the paradox of hedonism is that pleasure cannot be acquired directly.[1] Variations on this theme appear in the realms of ethics, philosophy, psychology, and economics…
Happiness is often imprecisely equated with pleasure. If, for whatever reason, one does equate happiness with pleasure, then the paradox of hedonism arises. When one aims solely towards pleasure itself, one’s aim is frustrated. Henry Sidgwick comments on such frustration after a discussion of self-love in the above-mentioned work:
I should not, however, infer from this that the pursuit of pleasure is necessarily self-defeating and futile; but merely that the principle of Egoistic Hedonism, when applied with a due knowledge of the laws of human nature, is practically self-limiting; i.e., that a rational method of attaining the end at which it aims requires that we should to some extent put it out of sight and not directly aim at it.[11]**
You only need to look at the lives of real-life doctrinaire hedonists to see the sorry results, like the 17th century Earl of Rochester. Johnny Depp played him in a 2004 movie called The Libertine:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Libertine_(2004_film
**The Libertine is a 2005 British-Australian drama film, the first film directed by Laurence Dunmore…
Themes explored in the film include the corruption of a people by their self-indulgent monarch and the pursuit of hedonism…
The story begins with John Wilmot, Second Earl of Rochester (Depp), delivering his prologue, the main themes of which are his fondness for drink, his sexual proclivities, and his disdain for his audience…
Rochester writes Sodom, or the Quintessence of Debauchery, a scathing satire of the King’s reign, which he claims is indeed “a testament to Charles” — just what the King had asked for. The play involves live sex acts, vulgar imagery, and a brutal portrayal of the King, played by Rochester himself…
Hiding from the King in the English countryside and sick with symptoms of syphilis, Rochester peddles phony gynaecological “treatments” for women, including the selling of “potions” made from Alcock’s urine. Rochester’s face has become disfigured by syphillitic gummata, which he hides beneath a mask. Charles eventually tracks down Rochester, but decides that the worst punishment possible is to simply “let you be you.” Rochester returns to his wife, Elizabeth (Pike), admitting to having been constantly under the influence of “the drink” for five years straight…
Rochester returns home to his deathbed, where he dies aged thirty-three with Elizabeth, his mother, a priest summoned to “bring God to him” as she did not want Rochester to die as an atheist, and Alcock. Before he dies, Rochester asks the priest to recite from Book of Isaiah, chapter 53; he also asks his wife to retell the story of how he had abducted her as an 18 year old lady when they fell in love…**
Rochester died aged only 33 from the effects of syphilis, gonorrhea, and other venereal diseases, combined with the effects of alcoholism and overeating.

Too much alcohol, sex and food horridly disfigured and then killed him. A cautionary tale. We are simply not biologically meant to live like that. We’re supposed to strive for a balanced, healthy lifestyle.

It is not a wise or rational way to live, irrespective of one’s religion or lack thereof.

If hypothetically losing one’s religion leads a person to live so recklessly when convinced atheists are capable of living exemplary lives, well…:rolleyes:

Hypothetically - though it would be nigh impossible in practise for me to ever lose my Catholic Faith - I would like to that I am made of better stuff as person and have some integrity, such that I would continue to live a balanced, prudent life.
 
The Church has taught consistently that:
–marriage is permanent for life.
–Artificial contraception is a grave wrong.
–Euthanasia and assisted suicide are gravely evil.
–Homosexual actions are wrong.
–Sex outside of the marital bond of wrong.

These teachings will not change.
The Holy Spirit does not teach contradictory moral law.
Its called development of doctrine by the Church. Some see the difference between development of doctrine and change as half a dozen of one, six of the other. Those who argued against Newman’s explication of this for instance.

Either way, at one time it was de fide that one could not be saved outside the visible church (unless one was formally Catholic one was doomed to perdition). That dogma has become more nuanced. Two covenant theory, the idea that all may be saved and such.

This development that is unfolding is simply putting conscious at the core of sacramental understanding. Paul’s warning about receiving the Eucharist unworthily had nothing to do with whether one had eaten meat and not confessed (in the day when it was a mortal sin and would send one to hell if not forgiven in reconciliation) or any such. Paul can easily be understood as reception being unworthy if one’s conscious was not clear. AL is simply bringing out a truth that was there all along but that had not been grasped yet. Just as it took 1900 years to come to the current understanding of infallibility. Infallibility was always there. It did not pop up new at V1. So too this - assuming it is at some point formally defined by the Pope.
 
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