Vatican’s legal chief says desire to change enough for Communion

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The Church has to change with the times!
How does the Church change with the times? By changing teaching? If the Bible is the word of Christ and the Church basis her truth claims on being the church founded by Christ, how can the Church change his words or teachings and continue to make truth claims?
The mission of the Church is not so much to define and enforce rules but to save souls.
And does the Church save souls by teaching and asking Christians to abide by Christ’s teachings or by ignoring/changing those teachings? Savings souls isn’t about making people feel good or okay about their sins. It’s about Christ.
What is considered impermissible at one time in history should be considered permissible at another point in history given the world has changed.
And you’ve never considered that the world has militated against Christ in favor of its own wickedness? The Word of God does not change with the times: it’s immutable and unchanging.
Again, the Church’s main goal should be to save souls.
How?
God knows what’s going on in each heart, and the Church should fully accept all repentant sinners for the Holy Eucharist.
Define repent? Christ didn’t say “Go forth knowing that your past and future sins are forgiven because you wish you to change”. He did say “Go and sin no more.”. As in stop committing the sin you were committing.
 
Rigid is a word liberal (“non-rigid”) Catholics use to describe those whose arguments they can’t answer. It’s not only an ad hominem attack, it’s a false ad hominem.
Its just a word that one Cardinal Georges Cottier defined very well I thought 🤷.
I have no idea if he is a liberal or a conservative or fits any such narrow boxes on any topic you may be thinking of. I am not at all concerned if he does. It’s a good insight.

BTW he spoke about “rigorism”, not “rigidity”, seem similar but actually different.
Cardinal Cottier:
“In rigorism there is an innate brutality that goes against the gentle way God has of guiding each person.”
 
Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
I’ve never noticed that in Church canons myself, have you?
So when you want to respond to my points maybe we can have rational and fruitful converse.
Not really interested in being like a library book left on the lounge floor to be scribbled on with big black crayons :o.

As has just been said, “When the argument descends to the absurd, as in rape, it has pretty much ran its course. .”
 
Its a bit sad when you don’t recognise an application/paraphrase of your own signature motto :eek:.

Viz:
Can you respond to the question? What is your point with the rigorism quote?
And would you please stop insulting and condescending.
 
Can you respond to the question? What is your point with the rigorism quote?
And would you please stop insulting and condescending.
This quote seems apposite:
“If you want things to change …” (By Goout) ;).
 
Excerpt from article by Fr Raymond De Souza:

Four questions for Cardinal Coccopalmerio
First, the very council of which he is the head issued a declaration in 2000 “concerning the admission to Holy Communion of faithful who are divorced and remarried”. The council explains why canons 915 and 916 prevent the admission of such couples to Holy Communion and makes the point, in legal language, that it can’t be changed because Jesus said so: “The prohibition found in the cited canon, by its nature, is derived from divine law and transcends the domain of positive ecclesiastical laws: the latter cannot introduce legislative changes which would oppose the doctrine of the Church.”
The declaration continues: “Any interpretation of canon 915 that would set itself against the canon’s substantial content, as declared uninterruptedly by the Magisterium and by the discipline of the Church throughout the centuries, is clearly misleading. One cannot confuse respect for the wording of the law with the improper use of the very same wording as an instrument for relativising the precepts or emptying them of their substance.”
Therefore, if the head of the council publishes in his private capacity advice that is judged erroneous by the extant declaration of his own council, why does he does not declare the declaration no longer in force? If the declaration is still in force, how does he advise parish priests who might seek his guidance? Do X if he replies on his office stationery, but not-X if he responds by way of a personal letter?
Second, Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington, a leading defender of Amoris Laetitia, recently told his seminarians: “When we begin our reflections on the pastoral implications of Amoris Laetitia, we need to start with the understanding that none of the teaching of the Church has been changed. This includes the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage, the directives you find in the Code of Canon Law, and also the role of individual conscience in the determination of personal culpability.”
Does Cardinal Coccopalmerio thus think Cardinal Wuerl is incorrect when he says that the canonical directives are unchanged?
Third, Cardinal Coccopalmerio employs the example of a woman who has been living with a divorced father for 10 years and would like to leave the situation, but concludes that if she does the man will fall into greater sin, and the children will suffer. Therefore she decides to remain and continue their sexual relationship even though she is fully aware that it is sinful and she would otherwise prefer not to commit that sin. There is no coercion here. The woman judges that it is better to continue the sinful behaviour to avoid some potential suffering or sinful behaviour in the future.
How does this not violate the ancient moral principle, stated explicitly in St Paul and reflected in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that it is never permissible to deliberately do evil (sin) in order that good might come from it?
Fourth, cohabiting couples presumably can get married. If they choose not to and live in a sexual relationship which they have no intention of ceasing, on what possible principle can they be granted absolution and Holy Communion? To which the cardinal should be asked: does your inclusion of cohabiting couples mean that you think Amoris Laetitia can be employed to advance a capitulation to the sexual revolution, tout court?
There is much discussion of dubia in Rome these days. Cardinal Coccopalmerio’s intervention has raised more.
catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2017/02/23/four-questions-for-cardinal-coccopalmerio/
 
Rigid is a word liberal (“non-rigid”) Catholics use to describe those whose arguments they can’t answer. It’s not only an ad hominem attack, it’s a false ad hominem.
Pope Francis used that word. As rigidity (in the law, not people) is one of the issues addressed in Amoris Laetitia, I fail to see how it can be out of bounds.
 
Well, well, well, everyone, I have discovered Blue Horizon’s secret. And it’s all her fault, because she erroneously said that Card. Cottier had provided a good definition of rigorism, and I planned to contend that he had provided no definition at all.

In my research to find an actual definition of the word, I ran across the little-known definition of rigorism: “(in the Roman Catholic Church) formerly, the doctrine that in doubtful cases of conscience the strict course is always to be followed.”

Well, of course I had to follow that up, and read a few articles, which were slightly confusing in the differences in small details, but I got the gist of the thing.

There is a whole area of Catholic moral theology which concentrates on when one may act in a certain way, and within (?) that area, a set of schools of thought which discuss the matter along a spectrum, since it is true that decisions so often do lie along a spectrum.

Imagine, if you will, a line, at the left of which is the idea of Rigorism (possibly exceeded by Absolute Rigorism). Some of my sources indicated a difference between Rigorism and Absolute Rigorism; unfortunately, it was difficult for me to tell if there is definitely a difference or not, and I don’t have time to look into the matter right now.

Rigorism holds that in the case of doubt, one *must *stick to what is known to be morally permitted —one is not permitted to veer onto the other side of liberty— or, that to veer to the side of liberty, the view must be most or almost certainly probably all right.

So now we know what Cardinal Cottier was talking about, and I must say that I disagree with him, but will not go into that now.

To get back to the spectrum, on the opposite side of Rigorism is Laxism, which holds that to err on the side of liberty is morally acceptable even if there is only slight evidence that to do so would be moral, or as few as one opinion that it would be all right.

These two extremes, Rigorism (or maybe only Absolute Rigorism) and Laxism, have been condemned in some form by the Vatican,

In between these two extremes lie a few other choices, with varying degrees of balance, known as Æquiprobabilism, Probabilism, and Probabiliorism.

And then there is one which is slightly different from the above systems: Compensationism. Compensationism adds a new element to the equation, that of a reason proportionate in gravity to the gravity of the law involved.

Oooohhhhh, iiiinnnnteresting! This begins to sound a lot like the arguments put forth for various courses of action, but in particular, for allowing the D&R to receive the Eucharist: you know what I mean, all the *stories *of people *feeling bad. *

The argument may rest on something BH pointed out in my commenting that leaving would not involve sin. BH pointed out that in Familiaris Consortio, St Pope JP2 had said that couples could live continue to live together “when for serious reasons… a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate,” which BH in post 193 on page 13 considers to form a basis for the sinfulness of a D&R couple’s separating if there are children involved.

Well, this is as far as I have gotten with this, but it explains a lot to me, and it is quite a relief to me to understand that there is (or may be, after all, it is not *certain *that Pope Francis is operating under this moral system) some reasoning behind this… event.

Link to Catholic Encyclopedia article

Link to Wikipedia article
 
Well, well, well, everyone, I have discovered Blue Horizon’s secret. And it’s all her fault, because she erroneously said that Card. Cottier had provided a good definition of rigorism, and I planned to contend that he had provided no definition at all.

In my research to find an actual definition of the word, I ran across the little-known definition of rigorism: “(in the Roman Catholic Church) formerly, the doctrine that in doubtful cases of conscience the strict course is always to be followed.”

Well, of course I had to follow that up, and read a few articles, which were slightly confusing in the differences in small details, but I got the gist of the thing.

There is a whole area of Catholic moral theology which concentrates on when one may act in a certain way, and within (?) that area, a set of schools of thought which discuss the matter along a spectrum, since it is true that decisions so often do lie along a spectrum.

Imagine, if you will, a line, at the left of which is the idea of Rigorism (possibly exceeded by Absolute Rigorism). Some of my sources indicated a difference between Rigorism and Absolute Rigorism; unfortunately, it was difficult for me to tell if there is definitely a difference or not, and I don’t have time to look into the matter right now.

Rigorism holds that in the case of doubt, one *must *stick to what is known to be morally permitted —one is not permitted to veer onto the other side of liberty— or, that to veer to the side of liberty, the view must be most or almost certainly probably all right.

So now we know what Cardinal Cottier was talking about, and I must say that I disagree with him, but will not go into that now.

To get back to the spectrum, on the opposite side of Rigorism is Laxism, which holds that to err on the side of liberty is morally acceptable even if there is only slight evidence that to do so would be moral, or as few as one opinion that it would be all right.

These two extremes, Rigorism (or maybe only Absolute Rigorism) and Laxism, have been condemned in some form by the Vatican,

In between these two extremes lie a few other choices, with varying degrees of balance, known as Æquiprobabilism, Probabilism, and Probabiliorism.

And then there is one which is slightly different from the above systems: Compensationism. Compensationism adds a new element to the equation, that of a reason proportionate in gravity to the gravity of the law involved.

Oooohhhhh, iiiinnnnteresting! This begins to sound a lot like the arguments put forth for various courses of action, but in particular, for allowing the D&R to receive the Eucharist: you know what I mean, all the *stories *of people *feeling bad. *

The argument may rest on something BH pointed out in my commenting that leaving would not involve sin. BH pointed out that in Familiaris Consortio, St Pope JP2 had said that couples could live continue to live together “when for serious reasons… a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate,” which BH in post 193 on page 13 considers to form a basis for the sinfulness of a D&R couple’s separating if there are children involved.

Well, this is as far as I have gotten with this, but it explains a lot to me, and it is quite a relief to me to understand that there is (or may be, after all, it is not *certain *that Pope Francis is operating under this moral system) some reasoning behind this… event.

Link to Catholic Encyclopedia article

Link to Wikipedia article
I don’t know what I read, I don’t know if it’s serious or not. But one thing I do know. It is absolutely epic!
 
This quote seems apposite:
“If you want things to change …” (By Goout) ;).
I’m asking you to elaborate on some comments you made, not reprimand me like I am your child.

Can you elaborate on your concept of "rigorist saints"? What is a rigorist saint?
Can you elaborate on your quote about rigorism from Card Cottier (sp)?
To what point were you addressing the quote?

thanks in advance for tolerating my question.
 
Well, this is as far as I have gotten with this, but it explains a lot to me, and it is quite a relief to me to understand that there is (or may be, after all, it is not *certain *that Pope Francis is operating under this moral system) some reasoning behind this… event.

Link to Catholic Encyclopedia article

Link to Wikipedia article
Thank you for your work. I like have names attached to these ideas. Best post on the subject in quite a while.
 
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