Vatican bank image hurt as JP Morgan closes account [Is the government attacking the Church?]

[Gertabelle]

Why is it when facts do not go certain people’s way, we always attack the messenger. Catholics that voted, the only ones that matter in elections, voted 58% for Obama. Polling is a scientific process used both left and right to demonstrate support. If it’s your position that it doesn’t matter if they did, that’s one thing. To deny it is another.

The 98% does refer to child bearing age. Whether that is 98 or 97 or 90 it is still an overwhelming majority. If it’s your position that it doesn’t make it right, that’s one thing. To deny that the over whelming majority of Catholic women, of child bearing age, are using birth control is mere denial.

Wow, I thought Br. JR’s post was perfectly fair. So who is attacking the messenger? Is it so difficult to allow someone else to have an opinion that is different from yours without attacking their character?

Regarding the 98% issue… Where exactly is this research study that politicians have been quoting? I still think the numbers are completely skewed. I need to go back through this thread and see where you posted the link to the original study (haven’t been around here for awhile). I’ll have more to say about that after I’ve checked the link.

God bless you.

Gertie

 

[ProVobis]

The debt was $10.626 trillion on the day Mr. Obama took office. The latest calculation from Treasury shows the debt has now hit $15.589 trillion.

In fairness, part of this is the almost $2 trillion which Bernanke printed but is yet unspent. The taxpayer is on the hook for this, whether it’s spent or not. And now threatens to add more to the deficit, except he didn’t quite call it that.

That said, do you think Romney can reduce the total debt to $10.6 trillion by increasing the military spending as he said (I think)?

 

[Love_God_Too]

Wow, I thought Br. JR’s post was perfectly fair. So who

is attacking the messenger? Is it so difficult to allow someone else to have an opinion that is different from yours without attacking their character?

 

[Erich]

Oh by the way all those additional jobs lost were in his first year prior to his stimulus bill even taking effect, but hey who needs facts when you have rhetoric…Blinded by the Right…

It is very hard to support the claim that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) was responsible for the turnaround in GDP growth from February 2009 to February 2010. This is because the turnaround was from productivity growth, which is part of the supply side of the economy. And the supply side is unrelated to the Keynesian ideas of demand management that are the foundation of the ARRA.

The White House Council of Economic Advisors council reported in July 2011 that, using “mainstream estimates of economic multipliers for the effects of fiscal stimulus” (which it describes as a “natural way to estimate the effects of” the legislation), the “stimulus” has added or saved just under 2.4 million jobs — whether private or public — at a cost (to date) of $666 billion. That’s a cost to taxpayers of $278,000 per job. In other words, the government could simply have cut a $100,000 check to everyone whose employment was allegedly made possible by the “stimulus,” and taxpayers would have come out $427 billion ahead.

Mind you these are Obama’s own economists, so the report is like an employee’s performance evaluation that was filled out by the employee. The absolute truth is much more bleak; over ten years, the CBO says the stimulus will raise the federal deficit $830 billion – $43 billion more than originally estimated.

The goal of the stimulus was to create shovel-ready jobs, with, according to top Obama economic advisor Larry Summers, a “targeted,” “temporary,” and “timely” scope. As many predicted, the stimulus failed to produce the Keynesian results it promised. Obama said the stimulus bill would put nearly 400,000 people back to work rebuilding America. But over the next two-and-a-half years, the U.S. construction industry shed about 900,000 jobs or 14 percent of the building workforce. The stimulus was also supposed to encourage a green economy, promising to place 80,000 people in green jobs. As of now, halfway through the program, only 8,000 placements have been made.

We would have gotten more out of the “stimulus” if we had just burned the money. At least it could have provided heating for folks.

 

[Gertabelle]

There is little dispute that the majority of Catholic women use some sort of birth control, overwhelmingly.

When I was doing my doctoral studies, we were forbidden to throw out “obvious assumptions” without any validly-conducted research to back up our statements. And, sorry, but one politically-ended article quoting somebody else’s work does NOT count as a reliable primary source of information.

So, if you are going to say that “the majority of Catholic women use some sort of birth control” you need to be able to back that statement up with an actual research study – not just your own well-reasoned and insightful opinion.

Unlike other internet forums, CAF members are just really likely to call out a person who gives unsubstantiated statistics or information. If you want to pursuade all of us that your opinions are fact, you’ll need to show the “proof” of an actual study, not just refer to an article that happens to agree with your opinion.

I just quoted a quote from a **magazine article **early on in the thread and then everyone seemed to want to deny the obvious which is woman of child bearing years in the US, including Catholic woman are exercising use of some form of birth control.

This is no secret but for some reason many want to deny the obvious.

“The obvious”

I think I am finally getting the point. YOU think that because you read an ONLINE ARTICLE that contained a number (98%) which backs your opinion, that this number is a FACT and cannot be rebuffed.

Many of on this thread read the ACTUAL STUDY (found here) from which the number (98%) was taken, and can see the HUGE FLAWS in their research.

I can’t tell from your profile how old you are or your level of education. I had exactly and only one course in statistics as part of my coursework for my doctorate. In spite of that limitied experience in a VERY beginning course, I can see the holes in this report (it’s not even a study) from the very opening section – titled “Background” – in which the authors pit the various religions against one another and refers to the USCCB as “leading the charge” against the HHS.

There is NO WAY this sort of language, and the methodology used in this report would have been accepted in a doctoral program, let alone a serious scientific journal publication.

Da Nola already posted a dissection of the report’s flaws in a previous post. I’m including that here. If you have any difficulty in understanding the significance of this analysis (why it’s completely invalid from a research point of view), send me a PM (private message) and I’ll dig out my statistics book and try to help.

More important - this group didn’t take a survey, but uses one from 2006-2008 National Survey of Family Growth. This study includes about 25,000 women (surveys from 1992, 2005, 2006-2008) plus 4953 men. It does not include the demographic of religion. In other words no one was asked what religion they followed.

Another study referenced (by American College of Obstetrics & Gynecology) state; in 2002 3.3% of 7,643and 6.2% of 7,356 from 06-08 study were asked similar questions, claimed being Catholic. These numbers do not conclude 98%. These figures don’t even add up to match National Survey of Family Growth surveys which they are compared to.

God bless you.

Gertie
(still ABD, All-But-Dissertation on that degree )

 

[Love_God_Too]

I give up with you. I can count too

My 401 K was a 201 K with - Bush

My house value in half - Bush

Banks ready to default - Bush

1 trillion request to congress to bail out wall-street written on the back of a cocktail napkin - Bush (half of one sheet of paper with no accountability)

2 unfunded wars - Bush

Medicare unfunded “socialist” mandate - Bush

ZERO job growth after 8 years- Bush

Collapsing auto industry, first payment made by - Bush

Largest gap developed between the middle class and rich since Hoover - Bush

Failure to get Osama Bin Laden, in fact he didn’t even think of him much - Bush

Other than when he wanted him dead or alive of course - Bush

Torturing fellow humans - Bush

Listening to American’s phone calls illegally - Bush

Jailing people without due process - Bush

Had more vacation than any other President in modern American history - Bush

Most hated president by the world community - Bush (lowest approval rating) only rivaled by the current Republican congress approval rating in the US.

It’s like you and I live in different universes.

But hey, let’s protect the constitution from that Socialist Obama.

 

[PeVee]

Lets face it, Christians can no longer vote for the Democrat party. If you vote for Democrats you are cooperating with intrinsic evil. Live your faith, vote your faith.

 

[Love_God_Too]

I can’t tell from your profile how old you are or your level of education.

Please Doctor, enlighten us as to my age and education level. I look forward to your"obvious" assumptions. Oh and secondarily, Doctor, are you actually suggesting that the overwhelming majority of Catholic women are not using birth control in their child bearing years? Please tell us Doctor…

Oh and God Bless you too of course.

 

[Love_God_Too]

Lets face it, Christians can no longer vote for the Democrat party. If you vote for Democrats you are cooperating with intrinsic evil. Live your faith, vote your faith.

58% of Catholics voted for Obama I guess we just don’t measure up to your judgment, Oh what was it that Jesus said about that judging thing… Let me see.

Funny thing is… I feel that people that support other people that torture people are evil too. Hmmmmmmm

 

[Dawnia]

Please Doctor,** enlighten us as to my age **and education level. I look forward to your"obvious" assumptions. Oh and secondarily, Doctor, are you actually suggesting that the overwhelming majority of Catholic women are not using birth control in their child bearing years? Please tell us Doctor…

Oh and God Bless you too of course.

From your response, I’d guess about 12.

 

[ishii]

Ugh… guys, please stop feeding the trolls.

You’re right exoflare- the problem is, its hard to know right away if a poster is a troll or not. Sometimes it becomes obvious though- as is the case on this thread. I now realize I was wasting my time. I will continue to discuss the issues with rational people on the forums. Agreed - ignore the trolls

From your response, I’d guess about 12.

You’re far too generous - 12 going on 8 is perhaps more accurate.

Ishii

 

[Dawnia]

You’re right exoflare- the problem is, its hard to know right away if a poster is a troll or not. Sometimes it becomes obvious though- as is the case on this thread. I now realize I was wasting my time. I will continue to discuss the issues with rational people on the forums. Agreed - ignore the trolls

You’re far too generous - 12 going on 8 is perhaps more accurate.

Ishii

The use of complete sentences threw me off.

 

[Love_God_Too]

Some of you and your level of Christian charity, your nonjudgmental ways are very evident. Thankfully most of you represent the kookiest members of our faith and do not represent the average Catholic. You worship your political views more than you do a loving God.

It’s a shame really.

 

[ZoeyBdo]

Not to get involved in the debate, I’ll just answer the question that was originally asked.

Is the government attacking the church? Per the question regarding JP Morgan, no, I don’t believe so.

Is OUR government attacking the 1st Amendment, yes, to that I firmly believe so.

BTW, I’m in that % of people who did NOT vote for Obama, nor did I vote for Bush.

I am also part of the small % of people who believe Obama’s grandmother when she says that she witnessed his birth in Kenya… so yeah… I’m “one of those”… What a scandal it should be, but noone wants to admit that this nation elected a non-american citizen.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

The US State Department recently issued its 2012 International Narcotics Control Strategy Report, and in that report are three lists of countries which risk money laundering. The lists are based upon degree of risk: countries where money laundering is known to occur, countries where there is a high degree of risk, and countries being monitored. The United States, the UK, Russia, Germany, and about 60 other nations are in the worst category. The Vatican, however, is in the middle category.
state.gov/j/inl/rls/nrcrpt/2012/vol2/184112.htm

The Vatican was included for the first time in these lists because, last year, it began the process of cooperating with international law regarding banking transparency. Before then, not enough was known for the State Department to make an evaluation.

Allegations of money laundering by the Vatican Bank have occurred in the past, however.
reuters.com/article/2012/03/08/vatican-laundering-idUSL5E8E89AM20120308

When I saw this I remembered seeing something about someone getting busted within the Vatican for laundering money and stealing from the church. I couldn’t remember the whole story, but I had heard they were going to start cooperating with international law regarding banking transparency to prevent something like that from happening again. I wondered if this had something to do with all that so thanks for posting these references in regards to the original post instead of going off on some tangent about Obama and Birth Control

Anyway, crying the church is being attacked isn’t addressing the real problem. The real problem is inside the church: the scandals and money launderers who are taking advantage of a system that obviously assumes people within the Church would be honest. Hopefully it will all eventually be changed so that this sort of nonsense doesn’t happen in the future.

 

[lax16]

I stand corrected. Even though you are trying to deny my faith. There’s that false witness thing again…

Really? You are denying your faith by touting the strengths of a president who is militantly pro-abortion and has spread abortion to other countries. Therefore, you have denounced your Catholic faith. At least try to show both sides of the argument.

Did you know that people are allowed to discuss and disagree with one another and not be guilty of being a false witness? We are also allowed to point out one another’s mistakes in a charitable way.

Your obsession with Obama is quite interesting.

 

[lax16]

I do have to acknowledge something. I really always considered myself a loyal, middle of the road, Catholic. 12 years of Catholic school, attend church regularly, work with different charities, etc. With that said, if this site is indicative of our faith as a whole, I now believe I am a radical leftest Catholic.

Why is that? Because true Catholics follow their faith and denounce abortion and abortion supporters?

 

[Erich]

I give up with you. I can count too

Just not very high, apparently Let’s look at a representative sample, shall we?

My 401 K was a 201 K with - Bush

My house value in half - Bush

Banks ready to default - Bush

You have to go further back than Bush. The fact is that the roots of this economic crisis go back to the Clinton and Carter Administrations, the radical group ACORN, and Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) and Senator Christopher Dodd (D-CT).

From this article:

• Under President Jimmy Carter, the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) was passed. It required federal financial institutions to encourage banks to give home loans to persons with little credit and low income. Economist Russell Roberts said that the CRA played a major role in creating the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the U.S.
• Under Bill Clinton, the CRA was expanded and Clinton set targets for low-income home ownership at the Department of Housing and Urban Development and at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Banks were forced by the federal government to provide bad loans to unqualified people.
• Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) is was Chairman of the Financial Services Committee in the House of Representatives. In 2003, he said of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: “These two entities – Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac – are not facing any kind of financial crisis. The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.” In the late 1980s and early 90s, Frank was engaged in a sexual relationship with Herb Moses, who was Fannie Mae’s assistant director of product initiatives! Bill O’Reilly exposed Frank’s involvement in the mortgage crisis: YouTube - O 'Reilly - Barney Frank Had Affair with Fannie Mae Exec. Frank looked the other way, while our economy was being destroyed by federal policies created in Clinton and Carter Administrations. (Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae help fund the homosexual agenda.
• In 2008, Freddie gave $20,000 to a Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) event; Fannie Mae gave nearly $19,000 to the same event. Freddie has donated $125,000 and Fannie donated $80,000 to homosexual groups since 2005.)
• Senator Christopher Dodd (D-CT) is was head of the powerful banking committee in the Senate. He and Barney Frank consistently resisted attempts by the Bush Administration to closely regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Dodd also got preferential treatment from Countrywide on two mortgages. Countrywide was one of the biggest subprime providers.
• Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd received thousands of dollars in contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac over the years. Dodd has received $133,900 since 1989; Frank received $40,100. (While in the Senate, Barack Obama received $105,849).
• As long ago as 2003, President Bush was trying to get the House and Senate to carefully monitor the actions of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. His efforts were rejected by Democrats.
• Obama associates headed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac during the years that the crisis was getting out of control. Obama friend Franklin Raines ran Fannie Mae and collected $50 million from it. Obama friend Jamie Gorelick worked for Fannie Mae and earned $26 million; Jim Johnson, formerly Obama’s vice president search committee chairman, hauled in millions from his work with Fannie Mae as CEO.
• ACORN, the socialist group that routinely engages in voter fraud, was involved in pushing for risky loans to people with bad credit histories or little money for down payments. ACORN intimidated banks in Chicago and elsewhere to give risky loans! Obama actually trained ACORN workers when he was a community organizer in Chicago! ACORN used provisions of the Community Reinvestment Act to delay or halt efforts of banks to merge or expand until they had lowered their credit standards!

(cont’d)

 

[Erich]

2 unfunded wars - Bush

From the Washington Examiner:

• Obama’s stimulus, passed in his first month in office, will cost more than the entire Iraq War – more than $100 billion (15%) more.
• Just the first two years of Obama’s stimulus cost more than the entire cost of the Iraq War under President Bush, or six years of that war.
• Iraq War spending accounted for just 3.2% of all federal spending while it lasted.
• Iraq War spending was not even one quarter of what we spent on Medicare in the same time frame.
• Iraq War spending was not even 15% of the total deficit spending in that time frame. The cumulative deficit, 2003-2010, would have been four-point-something trillion dollars with or without the Iraq War.
• The Iraq War accounts for less than 8% of the federal debt held by the public at the end of 2010 ($9.031 trillion).
• During Bush’s Iraq years, 2003-2008, the federal government spent more on education that it did on the Iraq War. (State and local governments spent about ten times more.)

Had more vacation than any other President in modern American history - Bush

Yes, at this time of his presidency, Bush had made 30 visits to his Texas ranch spanning all or part of 220 days. Obama’s vacations have become more controversial because of the costs associated with moving the first family to a public vacation spot, unlike the Bushes to their remote ranch in Crawford, Texas – where he had an office where he could hold “The Western White House,” so the cost to taxpayers was a lot less. The Obamas did a $100,000 weekend in Manhattan, an 11 day vacation in Hawaii, a weekend in Bar Harbor Maine (an expensive place), a week at Martha’s Vineyard (which is quite expensive), etc. The Hawaii Reporter said the first family’s 2011 Christmas vacation in Hawaii would exceed $1.5 million.

The Obama Vacation List:

– President’s Day 2012, Michelle and the first daughters in Aspen, Colorado to ski.
– Christmas 2011, the first family in Hawaii for an extended vacation.
– Summer 2011, in Martha’s Vineyard, Mass., for the annual beach break.
– June 2011, the first lady, her mother and daughters traveled to South Africa and Botswana.
– President’s Day 2011, the first lady and first daughters travel to Vail to ski.
– Christmas 2010, in Hawaii.
– August 2010, the first family traveled to Panama City Beach, Fla., for some sun and fun at the beach.
– August 2010, Obama spent the weekend alone in Chicago for his 49th birthday bash.
– August 2010, the first lady and daughter Sasha traveled to Spain for a mother-daughter vacation.
– August 2010, summer vacation again at Martha’s Vineyard.
– July 2010, the first family went to Mount Desert Island, Maine.
– May 2010, the first family had a four-day trip to Chicago.
– March 2010, first lady and daughter spend Spring Break in New York City.
– Christmas 2009, Hawaii again for the annual break.
– August 2009, at Yellowstone National Park and the Grand Canyon for a short vacation.
– August 2009, their first summer vacation as first family at Martha’s Vineyard, Mass.

When Bush was in office, Laura Bush took one vacation with her girlfriends every year - to a camping lodge in Washington state, where she and her friends went hiking. This is something they’ve apparently done for 15 years, so it was a tradition before she became First Lady. And, the cost to have your security detail at a camping lodge in Washington vs. the cost to have your security detail at a 5 star, $1000 a night resort in Spain… well, let’s just say Laura’s vacations were a lot cheaper. And she only took one per year.

Also, while Bush was in office, he did 24 rounds of golf in 8 years. So far, in less than 2 years, Obama has done over 40 rounds of golf, according to whitehousedossier. com. So Obama is spending about 8 times as much time on the golf course as Bush. Plus Obama’s had celebrity b-ball games, etc., that Bush never had.

I find this an interesting comparison, no?

It’s like you and I live in different universes.

Got that right.

 

[MugenOne]

If it wasn’t for Uncle Ben’s “FREE Money” QE Voodoo, BANKS in America would just be barely TREADING WATER.