O
- Status
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Agreed. But then I think the main concern here is whether by presenting this as “from the Vatican” we are being told that it is unCatholic to oppose such a central authority, particularly under these circumstances. Is the Catholic Church placing itself behind bailouts for Greece? That’s certainly the impression given.
It’s worth nothing a couple things:
- That enlarging the problem from the EU to the world would almost certainly entail poor countries subsidizing relatively richer countries like Greece.
- That the EU experience, itself, has demonstrated the dangers of creating a centralized authority with limited authority. There is simply too great a temptation for politicians and beauracrats to enlarge their powers once established.
A
A_Catholic
Guest
Has anyone seen Father Zuhlsdorf’s rant on this subject? He, as usual, hits it exactly.
Now, unfortunately, I know I’m not crazy.
He concludes with:
wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/the-new-white-paper-from-the-pont-council-justice-and-peace-fr-z-rants-like-loon/
Now, unfortunately, I know I’m not crazy.
J
JHow
Guest
It doesn’t get that far, but I do in my comment because I see it as a logical next step. The document does fret about the US dollar as a “currency of reference”, which is getting at the problem. If you create a single world bank to set a single investment banking function you will have to either have one currency, or peg the exchange rates of local currencies, which amounts to the same arithmetic.
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OchsFam
Guest
I didn’t get that vibe from it, but I can’t speak for everyone.
I certainly would disagree with that aspect if it were being proposed. I think the media may paint it as such, but then again they took a statement from Pope Benedict about a prostitute using a condom as condoning condom use so what can you really get from the media besides confusion.
I think it is just important to not look at this proposal as something to fear or that it is showing that the Church may be wrong or that it is going against Catholic doctrine on faith and morals. There are a lot of people who are nervous about this and my point is that there is nothing to be nervous about. The media can spin it however they wish, what is important to focus on is what the Church is saying about it and they are saying this is a viable solution but we need to understand that does not mean it is the only viable solution.
God Bless.
O
OchsFam
Guest
The world already has, in effect, a single currency. Europe is trying to break that but we all know how well the Euro is doing.
God Bless.
C
coachkfan1
Guest
I am sorry but the outward appearance of this whole thing is not good. I agree with everyone who says we need to read all of the document and analyze it completely, but we all know that most of the public, Catholic and non alike, will not read all of it, and truthfully many who do read it all do not have the background or the intelligence to completely understand it. This probably includes me. Sometime I just wonder if some people actually think about the consequences of what they are saying before firing off some statement that will be misconstrued by friend and foe alike. As others have said, it hurts our evangilization!
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
While I have learned to distrust the media coverage of religion, especially Catholic issues, in this case it sounds like the group that issued the paper was aiding and abetting that confusion:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8496648#post8496648
Even if this does not reflect poorly on pope Benedict, it does reflect poorly on the vatican.
M
michelleds
Guest
O
OchsFam
Guest
I agree that source documents should be read and understood but I think that even the most well thought out wording would be taken out of context to push whatever agenda each reporting agency is trying to accomplish.
The infallible Word of God, which is the most well thought out document in all of history, has been twisted to the destruction of many so why would any lesser document fair better?
God Bless.
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
I see your point, but it if it created by violence’ force or coercion,’ like the one child policy does in China, it would violate the ‘‘recommendations’’ of this document.
While I respect the Bishops and the Cardinals and so on, I don’t know if they just be writing such documents, look how has it has confused people, and the language used will be used by anti Catholics and conspiracy theorists.
Without being an economist I don’t know how you can propose such ideas anyway.
I expect there will be a ‘‘clarification’’ by the ‘‘Vatican’’ in the next few days.
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
This is speculative, I really don’t like this language because it is the base of so many conspiracy theories, which may or not be true, and the Vatican hasn’t proposed a single world currency in the document.
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
Catholic League
VATICAN COUNCIL CALLS FOR FINANCIAL REFORM
The Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace issued a document today titled, “Toward Reforming the International Financial and Monetary Systems in the Context of Global Public Authority.” Commenting on it is Catholic League president Bill Donohue:
There has been much hyperventilation from some quarters over the release of this document. All of it is unwarranted. To begin with, the text is not an encyclical, nor is it the work of Pope Benedict XVI. Much of what it says is consistent with long-standing Catholic social teaching: the quest for the common good should guide social and economic policy. It properly calls for “abandoning all forms of petty selfishness and embracing the logic of the global common good.”
Much of the early chatter focuses on the document’s call for a global authority to render economic justice. It says, “Benedict XVI himself expressed the need to create a world political authority.” The reference is to the pope’s encyclical, Caritas in Veritate. The term “world political authority” appears once in the encyclical, the context of which is a plea for “international cooperation” in the pursuit of a more just “political, juridical and economic order.” In the very next sentence, the Holy Father stresses that such an authority must “observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity.”
The document released today also emphasizes the need to follow the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. This means that solutions to social and economic problems should begin at the most local level, not at the national, much less the international, level. Indeed, the pope explicitly said in his 2009 encyclical that “subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state.”
Today’s statement uses terms like “supranational Authority” and “supranational Institution.” These neologisms are purely the creation of the authors, Cardinal Peter Turkson and Mario Toso. They are not found in the pope’s encyclical. No matter, those who are comparing this text to the demands of the “Occupy Wall Street” crowd should first detail what exactly it is the urban campers want.
catholicleague.org/vatican-council-calls-for-financial-reform/
I like the Catholic League, explained in a simplistic way.
VATICAN COUNCIL CALLS FOR FINANCIAL REFORM
The Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace issued a document today titled, “Toward Reforming the International Financial and Monetary Systems in the Context of Global Public Authority.” Commenting on it is Catholic League president Bill Donohue:
There has been much hyperventilation from some quarters over the release of this document. All of it is unwarranted. To begin with, the text is not an encyclical, nor is it the work of Pope Benedict XVI. Much of what it says is consistent with long-standing Catholic social teaching: the quest for the common good should guide social and economic policy. It properly calls for “abandoning all forms of petty selfishness and embracing the logic of the global common good.”
Much of the early chatter focuses on the document’s call for a global authority to render economic justice. It says, “Benedict XVI himself expressed the need to create a world political authority.” The reference is to the pope’s encyclical, Caritas in Veritate. The term “world political authority” appears once in the encyclical, the context of which is a plea for “international cooperation” in the pursuit of a more just “political, juridical and economic order.” In the very next sentence, the Holy Father stresses that such an authority must “observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity.”
The document released today also emphasizes the need to follow the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. This means that solutions to social and economic problems should begin at the most local level, not at the national, much less the international, level. Indeed, the pope explicitly said in his 2009 encyclical that “subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state.”
Today’s statement uses terms like “supranational Authority” and “supranational Institution.” These neologisms are purely the creation of the authors, Cardinal Peter Turkson and Mario Toso. They are not found in the pope’s encyclical. No matter, those who are comparing this text to the demands of the “Occupy Wall Street” crowd should first detail what exactly it is the urban campers want.
catholicleague.org/vatican-council-calls-for-financial-reform/
I like the Catholic League, explained in a simplistic way.
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
I don’t see where in the document it proposed a ''single world currency.
C
crazzeto
Guest
I am still awaiting further clarification on what is being suggested. What I have read thus far, quite honestly still troubles me at this moment. It is something over which I must pray and discern I suppose ultimatly.
Again, bad theology aside… It seems imprudent to suggest any form of global economic regulation on the basis of abuse. With all good intentions in mind, I am forced to remind my self what the road to hell is paved with to use dramatic language.
Surely the vatican must understand that what the document is asking for is pollitically unobtainable. The West is weak (frankly), and there are rising powers in the East which would seek to take advantage of such a structure. For the time being, at least from this laymans POV it would seem there is greater security in diversity as it were. Perhaps greater, individual cooperation, but still.
At best, what I have been able to take in of the document essentially seems like a bad idea. When you take into consideration the great need for Christian solidarity, and what a document like this might do to eccumenical efforts. It just comes off as being very rash, even if it was based solidly in Church teaching.
For the record, these are all my own very imperfect and fallible opinions.
I suppose the fact that I have had a family crisis of faith with my (convert) wife who has been pushing to leave for an evangelical church hasn’t helped. Certainly that is something I could never do, surely I would burn in hell for this (it would gravely violate my contience for openers). But that said, well ugh… A greatly ill timed document for me.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father. Have mercy on me, a sinner.
Again, bad theology aside… It seems imprudent to suggest any form of global economic regulation on the basis of abuse. With all good intentions in mind, I am forced to remind my self what the road to hell is paved with to use dramatic language.
Surely the vatican must understand that what the document is asking for is pollitically unobtainable. The West is weak (frankly), and there are rising powers in the East which would seek to take advantage of such a structure. For the time being, at least from this laymans POV it would seem there is greater security in diversity as it were. Perhaps greater, individual cooperation, but still.
At best, what I have been able to take in of the document essentially seems like a bad idea. When you take into consideration the great need for Christian solidarity, and what a document like this might do to eccumenical efforts. It just comes off as being very rash, even if it was based solidly in Church teaching.
For the record, these are all my own very imperfect and fallible opinions.
I suppose the fact that I have had a family crisis of faith with my (convert) wife who has been pushing to leave for an evangelical church hasn’t helped. Certainly that is something I could never do, surely I would burn in hell for this (it would gravely violate my contience for openers). But that said, well ugh… A greatly ill timed document for me.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father. Have mercy on me, a sinner.
C
crazzeto
Guest
Thanks for posting this, this is starting to help some.
J
JHow
Guest
I’m not sure if you meant my language or the language of the document, but if the latter, to some degree it fits. As Ochsfam noted US currency does function as a global currency - for instance, international transactions can be pegged to USD, as we used to do in Poland in in the early 1990s (old PZL went at about 40,000:1 before it was replaced). And, since the US has not done such good job at managing our affairs lately, I can see why our currency is featured a bad example in the document.
If you don’t like my language, I’m not trying to foment conspiracies, but the document itself contains some pretty florid bits to it. The three policies proposed are straight-forward sounding enough, but beg the question who or what agency does all this:
Other bits, like this one in the “Conclusions” section seem a little over embellished:
J
JReducation
Guest
We need to get away from the “papal encyclical mentality”. It seems that every time the Vatican speaks, everyone wants to know whether it’s a papal encyclical or whether it’s an Ex Cathedra statement. We sound like kids asking, “Do I have to?” Can’t the Church ever say anything without it being Ex Cathedra or an encyclical? Have today’s Catholics forgotten that the Vatican is also a real nation, with real rights and a real voice in the world? It has as much right as the USA to express its concerns on world affairs and to make suggestions. It does not have to invoke infallibility or write an encyclical to do so. As a moral authority, it also has a right to tell people to get their act together and do something for the sake of those who are suffering.
Vatican City has a Prime Minister, a Parliament and many departments that represent it and speak for it, just as does the United States. If you observe the document, it does not attempt to preach Catholic theology. It tries to pull from some of the Holy Father’s writings; but that does not make it a theological statement per se.
However, it does not say what people are saying either. It’s not calling for a one world government. It begins by saying that there needs to be some international organization to reign in those economic institutions that are ineffective and that are doing harm. In the past, that was the function of the World Bank. The World Bank no longer seems to work. It’s suggesting that it be replaced with something else.
It is not canonizing the UN. The Vatican knows that the UN is broken. It’s been preaching to the UN for years in the hope of moving the consciences of those who work there. In fact, it’s throwing a burden on the UN. It’s calling for the UN to do what it’s supposed to do and stop playing games. The UN is supposed to bring the key players to the table and problem solve together, before the world goes to war, which is often the next step when the world economy is in crisis. No single country is going to fix this economic mess, because economy is a global issue. Countries are interdependent.
The document also suggests that the oversight of the economy eventually be turned over to the local level to protect the less developed nations from being eaten alive by the more developed ones. This world economic governing body is a short-term project, not a permanent one.
The document also points to some truths as to why we’re in this crisis: greed, dishonesty, mismanagement and a few other things. It just uses fancier words than I do. For the naysayers that are seeing this as an excuse to leave the Catholic Church, one has to ask whether they understand the difference between Vatican City State and the Holy See. They may be in the same city, but are not the same thing. When the Holy See speaks through the state that is Vatican City, it’s speaking as another nation. It’s statements are proposals, not moral mandates. They deserve the same attention and respect as those made by the USA, UK, Japan or any other nation.
I’m not an economist. I don’t know if any of these proposals would work. I do know one thing. No one seems to be doing anything that works. We can consider these proposals or come up with better ones. But to take up time and energy wondering why the Church says this or that is not going to solve anything. The Vatican is not interested in our opinion about its manner of proceeding. Like any sovereign nation, how it proceeds is its business. The Church wants to hear solutions from us. Pope Benedict made it very clear, just this week, that the diplomatic mission of the Church from now going forward is to be the voice of the voiceless and the helpless. The Parliament of Vatican City and its departments are going to come up with some proposals to rescue the helpless.
They would probably be very happy if 2 billion Catholics came up with a better proposal that is guaranteed to work.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Vatican City has a Prime Minister, a Parliament and many departments that represent it and speak for it, just as does the United States. If you observe the document, it does not attempt to preach Catholic theology. It tries to pull from some of the Holy Father’s writings; but that does not make it a theological statement per se.
However, it does not say what people are saying either. It’s not calling for a one world government. It begins by saying that there needs to be some international organization to reign in those economic institutions that are ineffective and that are doing harm. In the past, that was the function of the World Bank. The World Bank no longer seems to work. It’s suggesting that it be replaced with something else.
It is not canonizing the UN. The Vatican knows that the UN is broken. It’s been preaching to the UN for years in the hope of moving the consciences of those who work there. In fact, it’s throwing a burden on the UN. It’s calling for the UN to do what it’s supposed to do and stop playing games. The UN is supposed to bring the key players to the table and problem solve together, before the world goes to war, which is often the next step when the world economy is in crisis. No single country is going to fix this economic mess, because economy is a global issue. Countries are interdependent.
The document also suggests that the oversight of the economy eventually be turned over to the local level to protect the less developed nations from being eaten alive by the more developed ones. This world economic governing body is a short-term project, not a permanent one.
The document also points to some truths as to why we’re in this crisis: greed, dishonesty, mismanagement and a few other things. It just uses fancier words than I do. For the naysayers that are seeing this as an excuse to leave the Catholic Church, one has to ask whether they understand the difference between Vatican City State and the Holy See. They may be in the same city, but are not the same thing. When the Holy See speaks through the state that is Vatican City, it’s speaking as another nation. It’s statements are proposals, not moral mandates. They deserve the same attention and respect as those made by the USA, UK, Japan or any other nation.
I’m not an economist. I don’t know if any of these proposals would work. I do know one thing. No one seems to be doing anything that works. We can consider these proposals or come up with better ones. But to take up time and energy wondering why the Church says this or that is not going to solve anything. The Vatican is not interested in our opinion about its manner of proceeding. Like any sovereign nation, how it proceeds is its business. The Church wants to hear solutions from us. Pope Benedict made it very clear, just this week, that the diplomatic mission of the Church from now going forward is to be the voice of the voiceless and the helpless. The Parliament of Vatican City and its departments are going to come up with some proposals to rescue the helpless.
They would probably be very happy if 2 billion Catholics came up with a better proposal that is guaranteed to work.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
A
A_Catholic
Guest
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
And the greed and abuses and everything else will not get better with a “supreme secular authority”. Too much power. The council and Pope are protected on faith and morals, I did not know they protected on politics and banking.We need to get away from the “papal encyclical mentality”. It seems that every time the Vatican speaks, everyone wants to know whether it’s a papal encyclical or whether it’s an Ex Cathedra statement. We sound like kids asking, “Do I have to?” Can’t the Church ever say anything without it being Ex Cathedra or an encyclical? Have today’s Catholics forgotten that the Vatican is also a real nation, with real rights and a real voice in the world? It has as much right as the USA to express its concerns on world affairs and to make suggestions. It does not have to invoke infallibility or write an encyclical to do so. As a moral authority, it also has a right to tell people to get their act together and do something for the sake of those who are suffering.
Vatican City has a Prime Minister, a Parliament and many departments that represent it and speak for it, just as does the United States. If you observe the document, it does not attempt to preach Catholic theology. It tries to pull from some of the Holy Father’s writings; but that does not make it a theological statement per se.
However, it does not say what people are saying either. It’s not calling for a one world government. It begins by saying that there needs to be some international organization to reign in those economic institutions that are ineffective and that are doing harm. In the past, that was the function of the World Bank. The World Bank no longer seems to work. It’s suggesting that it be replaced with something else.
It is not canonizing the UN. The Vatican knows that the UN is broken. It’s been preaching to the UN for years in the hope of moving the consciences of those who work there. In fact, it’s throwing a burden on the UN. It’s calling for the UN to do what it’s supposed to do and stop playing games. The UN is supposed to bring the key players to the table and problem solve together, before the world goes to war, which is often the next step when the world economy is in crisis. No single country is going to fix this economic mess, because economy is a global issue. Countries are interdependent.
The document also suggests that the oversight of the economy eventually be turned over to the local level to protect the less developed nations from being eaten alive by the more developed ones. This world economic governing body is a short-term project, not a permanent one.
The document also points to some truths as to why we’re in this crisis: greed, dishonesty, mismanagement and a few other things. It just uses fancier words than I do. For the naysayers that are seeing this as an excuse to leave the Catholic Church, one has to ask whether they understand the difference between Vatican City State and the Holy See. They may be in the same city, but are not the same thing. When the Holy See speaks through the state that is Vatican City, it’s speaking as another nation. It’s statements are proposals, not moral mandates. They deserve the same attention and respect as those made by the USA, UK, Japan or any other nation.
I’m not an economist. I don’t know if any of these proposals would work. I do know one thing. No one seems to be doing anything that works. We can consider these proposals or come up with better ones. But to take up time and energy wondering why the Church says this or that is not going to solve anything. The Vatican is not interested in our opinion about its manner of proceeding. Like any sovereign nation, how it proceeds is its business. The Church wants to hear solutions from us. Pope Benedict made it very clear, just this week, that the diplomatic mission of the Church from now going forward is to be the voice of the voiceless and the helpless. The Parliament of Vatican City and its departments are going to come up with some proposals to rescue the helpless.
They would probably be very happy if 2 billion Catholics came up with a better proposal that is guaranteed to work.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
- Status