Vatican Cardinal: Catholic Voters Can Never Be Justified in Voting for Pro-Abortion P

[vern_humphrey]

mvinca:

What exactly does that mean?

Take a look at how we justify killing a human being – executing a condemned killer, a case of self-defense, or going to war.

All of those require extensive justification.

Now take a look at how we “justify” the killing of an unborn child.

Is there a double standard there, or what?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[YADA]

It will be sad if the Bishops can clearly articulate that divorced/remarried outside the church Catholics cannot receive communion more clearly than that Pro-Abortion politicians that give lip service to being socially responsive should be denied communion.

(Who said that power and influence does not pay off?)

NOTE to Posters; I am Pro Life, against both abortion and the death penalty!

Proportionate reasons:
Executions (USA) per year approx 50 per year or 0.14 per day.

Abortions: 1,460,000 per year (USA) or approximately 4000 per day.

How to help those in need is less black and white then abortion. The assistance of those less fortionate is where public debate and compromise are very useful. Take the minimum wage: Politician A may be Pro-abortion, against the death penalty and advocate for $15/hr federal minimum wage. Politician B is opposed to abortion and for the death penalty and advocate for a minimum wage of $7/hr.

While being against the death penalty is a good, there is a major difference between an innocent child, who is provided no defense, no appeals, no trial, no years before the death sentence is administered and the convicted felon, who is provided a trial with a paid defense, atomatic appeals and time for the process to play out. This does not even address the difference in numbers as noted above.

That brings one to the wage difference. While the $15 seem more equatable than the $7, economics is more complex as is most other social issues. There are pluses and minuses. If minimum wages raise too high too fast due to artificial influences, lay offs occur. Some workers benefit at the expense of tose who loose there jobs. Goods and services cost more to pay for the increases, etc. $7 maybe too little. But $8 may be a good compromise. How do you abort part of a baby? Where can you find the middle ground?

And if Politician A is a self proclaimed Pro Choice Catholic (do not take this as a Democrat/Republican issue as we have Kennedy, Todd-Whitman, Kerry, Pataki, Szwatz., Guiliani…see being a Republican I can think of more of them than the Dems but I do not tink that that is the case!) it is really a sad day. As for me, I will stick with the party that has a pro life plank, that supports the unborn and do my social activism there. I think I will have better luck promoting life sentences with out parole there than the Pro Life Dems will in their party - althougth I pray for their success.

In my state the Archdiocesan newspaper gives accolades to the Pro Abortion Catholic governor when he promoted some hug a tree legislation. They are decidedly silent when he and his wife speak at NARAL/Planned Parenthood celebrations of the Roe V Wade decisions or when he states that he will veto legistation that limits abortions. And yes he receives communion and is a ‘faithful practicing catholic’ There was no condemnation in our Archdiocesan Paper (in year 2000) when a democratic elector from Eugene stated that they were a ‘practicing catholic who was there to cast their vote to make sure that a Pro Choice president (Al Gore) was elected president.’

 

[vern_humphrey]

YADA:

That brings one to the wage difference. While the $15 seem more equatable than the $7, economics is more complex as is most other social issues. There are pluses and minuses. If minimum wages raise too high too fast due to artificial influences, lay offs occur. Some workers benefit at the expense of tose who loose there jobs. Goods and services cost more to pay for the increases, etc. $7 maybe too little. But $8 may be a good compromise.

If you raise the minimum wage, you drive jobs overseas, and attract illegals here – who are exploited by the labor blackmarket that was created when we priced unskilled American labor too high.

When you look down at your foot and see four toes are missing, you might want to re-think the way you holster your gun.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[lencloud]

Be careful whom you elect. Not too many voters who care about the commandments would want to vote for a person that does not care about the his creation in birth.

 

[vern_humphrey]

lencloud:

Be careful whom you elect. Not too many voters who care about the commandments would want to vote for a person that does not care about the his creation in birth.

Who does not respect the right to life does not respect human life, period.

 

[YADA]

Vern & Len,

I agree, that was my point. Many forces and results can occur when you are shaping policies like Health Care, Social Security, Welfare, Minimum wages. They are areas where people of good will can have various positions, come together and reach common ground to the benefit of all. Abortion does not fall in this category.

I used the minimum wage because everytime it is a political foot ball my brother always advocates for $150/hour, that being a very living wage and all. (he does this in jest!) I always want to pose the question about why we only regulate the minimum, why don’t we have a maximum? Whay does Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and George Soros get all the dough? If the minimum is $7.25 lets have a maximum of say $225.25?

I actually understand the economics of tax and wage policies very well, as I own my own business. I hire and fire, meet payroll, pay taxes, offer health coverage for my employees [and various other benefits], and deal with the unwanted paper work imposed by government, etc. My emplyess health costs went up 28% in August. My company is very small - 4 to 5 full time employees and my husband who retired 4 years ago after cancer surgery and works occassionally 1 -2 days per month. My husband and I combined have never seen 6 figures (not from our salary, his retirement, social ssecurity, any profits for the business and what our small savings earns) But we are greedy, business owners who need to pay more in taxes.

That is why I get so crazy sometimes when people try to say you can vote for pro abort pols because the are not for welfare reform or other social engineering policies because of the **“Proportionality Clause” **

And I also cannot understand why people who are divorced and who are remarried without an annullment can so definitively be denied communion by our Bishops (and correctly so) but not the Pro Abortion politicians. The politiicans are visible and vocal in their opposition to Church teaching, they are a visible scandal and persistent in their sin. Yet our Bishops seem to dance around the issue.

The divorced and remarried issue is much more complex. Many of whom may be very repentant and trying to live their lives in accordance with the church, are attempting to reconcile themselves to the Church, and for the most part are not causing public scandal.

 

[vern_humphrey]

YADA:

Vern & Len,

I agree, that was my point. Many forces and results can occur when you are shaping policies like Health Care, Social Security, Welfare, Minimum wages. They are areas where people of good will can have various positions, come together and reach common ground to the benefit of all. Abortion does not fall in this category.

I used the minimum wage because everytime it is a political foot ball my brother always advocates for $150/hour, that being a very living wage and all. (he does this in jest!) I always want to pose the question about why we only regulate the minimum, why don’t we have a maximum? Whay does Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and George Soros get all the dough? If the minimum is $7.25 lets have a maximum of say $225.25?

I actually understand the economics of tax and wage policies very well, as I own my own business. I hire and fire, meet payroll, pay taxes, offer health coverage for my employees [and various other benefits], and deal with the unwanted paper work imposed by government, etc. My emplyess health costs went up 28% in August. My company is very small - 4 to 5 full time employees and my husband who retired 4 years ago after cancer surgery and works occassionally 1 -2 days per month. My husband and I combined have never seen 6 figures (not from our salary, his retirement, social ssecurity, any profits for the business and what our small savings earns) But we are greedy, business owners who need to pay more in taxes.

That is why I get so crazy sometimes when people try to say you can vote for pro abort pols because the are not for welfare reform or other social engineering policies because of the **“Proportionality Clause” **

And I also cannot understand why people who are divorced and who are remarried without an annullment can so definitively be denied communion by our Bishops (and correctly so) but not the Pro Abortion politicians. The politiicans are visible and vocal in their opposition to Church teaching, they are a visible scandal and persistent in their sin. Yet our Bishops seem to dance around the issue.

The divorced and remarried issue is much more complex. Many of whom may be very repentant and trying to live their lives in accordance with the church, are attempting to reconcile themselves to the Church, and for the most part are not causing public scandal.

This is a great post. Let me merely address one point. On the issue of giving communion to pro-aboriton politicians, a spokesman for the Diocese of Little Rock said “we don’t want to pressure them.”

Huh!?!

In every Catholic church in the land you will find people who cannot take communion – because they’re divorced and re-married, or are married to a Catholic but not Catholic themselves. But them, it’s okay to “pressure.”

I guess there are two Catholic Churches – one for the rich, famous and powerful, and the other for the rest of us.

 

[YADA]

Thanks Vern, “Huh, is right”, :banghead:

My husband and I had to wait years to receive communion. Both divorced, when he asked me to marry him, we discussed takling to a Priest. However, fear got the best of us. My husband said there was no way the church would frant him an annullment because his name was not “Kennedy” and he had no money, power or influence. Although his heart ached, during the troubled time when his marriage was failing he had stopped attending church. I do not think he felt the church let him down in any way bit he felt like a unredeemable failure.

I was not technically catholic at the time. Long story, anti catholic family, etc. My husband called me a ‘closet catholic’ because in my heart that is where I knew I should be but I only attended mass when I would not be found out!

My Church of Christ minister uncle. But you can’t ignore God’s call forever and after 3 years of attending Mass without receiving communion we had our marriage blessed. Our priest said we were an example of patience and faith. We just knew we were hungry! We new we needed to be right with God and the Church. We would be in worse shape if our priest (as some do) had just told us to come to communion, that it was ‘okay’ out of some misguided attempt to be ‘Pastoral’. I thank God for that man each and every day for guiding us. He helped enrich our marriage and our Christian walk with Jesus.

That is what is so sad about the limp stand regarding the pro abort pols. It is not so much about how every one sins or they are worse than others. It is that the church has an obligation to bring them back to a life of grace, a chance at repentence, and life, the life that Jesus gave His life for! :bowdown2:

 

[vern_humphrey]

YADA:

Thanks Vern, “Huh, is right”,

My husband and I had to wait years to receive communion. Both divorced, when he asked me to marry him, we discussed takling to a Priest. However, fear got the best of us. My husband said there was no way the church would frant him an annullment because his name was not “Kennedy” and he had no money, power or influence. Although his heart ached, during the troubled time when his marriage was failing he had stopped attending church. I do not think he felt the church let him down in any way bit he felt like a unredeemable failure.

I was not technically catholic at the time. Long story, anti catholic family, etc. My husband called me a ‘closet catholic’ because in my heart that is where I knew I should be but I only attended mass when I would not be found out!

My Church of Christ minister uncle. But you can’t ignore God’s call forever and after 3 years of attending Mass without receiving communion we had our marriage blessed. Our priest said we were an example of patience and faith. We just knew we were hungry! We new we needed to be right with God and the Church. We would be in worse shape if our priest (as some do) had just told us to come to communion, that it was ‘okay’ out of some misguided attempt to be ‘Pastoral’. I thank God for that man each and every day for guiding us. He helped enrich our marriage and our Christian walk with Jesus.

That is what is so sad about the limp stand regarding the pro abort pols. It is not so much about how every one sins or they are worse than others. It is that the church has an obligation to bring them back to a life of grace, a chance at repentence, and life, the life that Jesus gave His life for!

Somehow it doesn’t seem fair – a couple who are living together as man and wife are refused communion, but someone who promotes the murder of millions of innocent children . . . "We don’t want to pressure them."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon9.gif

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Well, here is the scoop from the Synod:

Coverage of Bishops Synod on the Eucharist

D-oh! I can’t get the link to work.OK, here it is:

nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/sb101805.htm

Proposition 46 treats the question of pro-choice Catholic politicians. It says that Catholic politicians and legislators “ought to feel themselves challenged in conscience” about the “grave responsibility” of supporting “iniquitous laws.” It says that a distinction between one’s private opinion and public stance on such matters is not tenable, and that this situation “should be considered in relationship to eucharistic truth.”

It goes on to cite 1 Corinthians 11, a warning from Paul about receiving the Eucharist falsely. In that sense, the proposition is largely a word-for-word reflection of a proposal made in one of the Spanish groups by Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Pontifical Council for the Family, as previously reported by NCR. A paragraph has been added to Lopez’s proposal, however, which injects a degree of nuance, with potentially important implications for American debates.

“In applying this orientation,” it says, “bishops ought to practice the virtue of prudence, taking into account the concrete local situation.” With this addition, the proposition in effect does not call for a universal Communion ban on pro-choice Catholic politicians that would override the case-by-case judgment of individual bishops.

See also:

No communion for pro-abortion political leaders, Synod told

Cardinals say Communion for Catholic politicians not a private matter

First week of synod follows patterns from past

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

This is a great post. Let me merely address one point. On the issue of giving communion to pro-aboriton politicians, a spokesman for the Diocese of Little Rock said “we don’t want to pressure them.”

I thought your state was full of Baptists and Assembly of God folks, and that your Legislature mirrored the demographic. What Catholic pro-abortion politicians do you have in the state or federal legislatures?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

I thought your state was full of Baptists and Assembly of God folks, and that your Legislature mirrored the demographic. What Catholic pro-abortion politicians do you have in the state or federal legislatures?

John Kerry visited Arkansas several times during the campaign.

 

[convert_2000]

YADA:

Vern & Len,

The divorced and remarried issue is much more complex. Many of whom may be very repentant and trying to live their lives in accordance with the church, are attempting to reconcile themselves to the Church, and for the most part are not causing public scandal.

Excellent point!