Vatican change of heart over 'barbaric' Crusades

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cestusdei:
I haven’t seen you condemn any terrorist attacks on Israel or the US. I post the story of Abdul and you only said you would pray for him as an afterthought. You were more concerned to say the whole thing was muslim bashing. Yes, they kill innocent people. I say it’s wrong and that’s muslim bashing! Then you have the audacity to argue I am wrong because innocent people might get killed in my scenerio? Think again. We are just alike except that you defend the killing of fellow Christians. For all my faults at least I support my brother Christians who suffer under the muslim yoke.
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How can you pretend to support your Christian brothers in muslim lands when you advocate a policy of antagonizing muslims? Do you think that is going to make life better for your brothers in the east?
 
Oh yes, I antagonize them by asking they not behead poor Abdul, or persecute copts, or chop off the heads of civilians…how terrible of me to protest such things. You’re right. Let them butcher our brothers. We can smile and maybe sharpen their knives for them. We will be good little dhimmi and maybe they will let us live. It would be horrible to ask them to respect religious freedom and freedom of conscience. How thoughtless of me!
 
Note to all,
Pro I believe has satisfactorily shown that he is a Catholic. For the record I no longer believe he is a Muslim infiltrator. I suggest we assume that he is a Catholic even if some of us think he is in error. Thank you.
 
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cestusdei:
Note to all,
Pro I believe has satisfactorily shown that he is a Catholic. For the record I no longer believe he is a Muslim infiltrator. I suggest we assume that he is a Catholic even if some of us think he is in error. Thank you.
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For the record, I’m just as happy having people believe whatever they will about my faith. My unyielding stance against religious bigotry and indiscriminate violence will speak for itself.

I still have my doubts that you are in fact a Priest, because I honestly do not believe you could complete the process while remaining hateful enough to advocate the use of Nuclear Weapons against holy sites.
 
Again note that the scenerio is that they use them first and kill millions and millions of Americans. Then threaten to keep doing it till we surrender. That’s what they have planned if they can pull it off. Your idea seems to be surrender and hope they don’t kill us. Mine is to fight and defeat them. We all lived thru the cold war under mutually assured destruction, remember? Maybe you don’t. It wasn’t pleasant, but we lived. Why don’t you begin your defence of innocent life by annoying the Muslims when they blow up pizza joints full of teens?

And for the record I don’t care if you think I am a priest etc. I can’t believe any Catholic could be as indifferent to persecution of Christians as you are. Guess we’re even.
 
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pro_universal:
Jesus makes that explicitly clear. “Not all who call my name…but those who do the will of the Father.”

It’s not my theory, it’s Jesus’s. Saying his name three times in the mirror every morning won’t make you a Christian; loving your neighbor will make you a Christian more than that will, even if you don’t know who Jesus is.

You can pretend that you’re just responding to injustice, but recommending propaganda reading like “A Politically Correct Guide to Islam” betrays a broader agenda of bashing Islam. I wish you would quit fooling yourself into believing that saying things like “Islam is evil!” actually convinces any muslims, or that it serves any purpose other than to make people like cestusdei feel better about hating islam.
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Funny, I thought being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit made one a Christian…
 
So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.
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Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.
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With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.
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That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.
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Excerpted from “The Real History of the Crusades”
By Thomas F. Madden (bold and underline emphasis mine)
crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

click on the link to read the whole article

Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including A Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople.

See also
“What the Crusades Were Really Like”
Part 1
Thomas Madden Dispels Myths

and

Part 2
Thomas Madden on the Crusades and Today

both Parts found at ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/ZCRSADES.HTM
 
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Muslim:
no one is really asking for any Christians to apologize for the Crusades because no one here were responsible for it…
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I would not apologise for the crusades, even if I was responsible for it. Also, His Holiness Urban II, the man who called the crusades is a canonised saint by the Vatican, and I am telling you now he is also my patron saint.

This St. Urban II visited George Bush, the Holy American Emperor on 9/11 with a message from our Lord Jesus that USA will be able to wage a successful crusade against Islamism and conquer both Afganistan and Iraq.
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Muslim:
unless you believe that you are responsible for other peoples mistake, then apologize away.
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I believe Islamists are collectively guilty for the illegal conquest of Christian lands in the East and forced Arabisation, Kurdification and Turkification during the period of the Islamic caliphate. Not just that, but I hate the interference of Muslims into internal Christian affairs (ie. monophysite, nestorian, etc). Thus, if Muslims could meddle into our affairs, then, yes, today after the Islamic Caliphate (yes, Orthodox Islam does have a Pope) was abolished in 1924, we will keep meddling into internal Islamic affairs and maintain American military presense in the lands of Islam, especially holiest of them all, Saudi Arabia.

Let me tell you frankly, we, Christians are however not guilty for the Crusades, which was, is, and will always be just war against Islamist aggression.
 
People always like to talk about the crusade this and crusade that, but they never want to talk about what happened after the crusade. After the crusade, the West was constantly threatened by the Saracens. Not until the Battle of Lepanto that the West was freed from this threat.
 
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pro_universal:
And I say they were unjust,
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Tell us on what authority do you say it is unjust? Who are you? His Holiness Urban II, the man who called the crusades remains a canonised saint by the Vatican. He is also my patron saint.
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pro_universal:
because they used bloody means to defend an unjust and corrupt regime that treated Christians worse than the muslims did by far.
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The Byzantine civil ruler of Egypt, His Holiness Cyrus, the Greek Patriarch of Alexandria was hardly unjust or corrupt ruler. You should know he was both Bishop and secular ruler, so as Caesar of Egypt he had the role to direct the Byzantine army to fight the invading Islamic army.

Monophysites are hardly Christian, in fact not Christians at all. Therefore it was not unjust to stop them from using the word Christian to call themselves. When they refused to obey government directive, the sword of Caesar went through their vitals-yes, it was sad we had to kill them but you have got to understand that they started the war first.
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pro_universal:
killing every man woman and child in Jerusalem…in order to defend an empire that made the word “byzantine” what it is today?
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This is yet another lie from you. The crusaders did not kill every man, woman and child in Jerusalem. The proof of this is when Saladin the Kurd was about to retake Jerusalem from the crusaders, he originally wanted to kill all Christians. However, when the Latin rulers in Jerusalem treatened to kill the local Muslim population living alongside the Christians he decided to change his plan and agreed to spare the lives of the crusaders in return for the lives of the local Muslims to be spared.

We can conclude that when the crusaders conquered Jerusalem and ruled it, they did not kill Muslims but treated them respectably like dhimmis.
 
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murtad:
Monophysites are hardly Christian, in fact not Christians at all. Therefore it was not unjust to stop them from using the word Christian to call themselves. When they refused to obey government directive, the sword of Caesar went through their vitals-yes, it was sad we had to kill them but you have got to understand that they started the war first.
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Who are you referring to when you say “monophysites”? What exactly are you saying? That “monophysites” were killed and it was just to kill them? If so, what did they do to deserve to be killed?
 
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cestusdei:
Pro I believe has satisfactorily shown that he is a Catholic.
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Please tell us how did he satisfactorily show that he is a Christian?
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cestusdei:
For the record I no longer believe he is a Muslim infiltrator.
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He may not be a Muslim but he may be a Marxist who is a paid apologist for Islam.
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cestusdei:
I suggest we assume that he is a Catholic even if some of us think he is in error. Thank you.
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Lord Jesus told us “faith without works is dead”, so even if pro-universal was, is and will always be a member of Catholic Church, he is considered a non-observant Christian. Therefore, he is hardly a true Christian.

Let us call him “Edomite” as he is a person who hates his birthright.
 
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discipleofJesus:
Excerpted from “The Real History of the Crusades”
By Thomas F. Madden (bold and underline emphasis mine)
crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

click on the link to read the whole article

Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including A Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople.

See also
“What the Crusades Were Really Like”
Part 1
Thomas Madden Dispels Myths

and

Part 2
Thomas Madden on the Crusades and Today

both Parts found at ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/ZCRSADES.HTM
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disciple:

The problem with the quotes from Madden is that they do not really tell you anything morally relevant about the crusades, just like his book doesn’t.

It is obvious to anyone that the crusades followed, had as their main focus, and were responses to Muslim expansion. When Madden says “The East”, he means Constantinople…which considered itself in need of defense from Europe just as much as from Muslims. I recommend you read the Alexiad of Anna Comnena for the primary source material on this. The Eastern Empire even allied with the Turks on occasion against the Latins…to prevent land grabs.

But back to the point about the moral question of the Crusades, to say that they followed Muslim aggression tells you nothing relevant whatsoever. Think of it this way: Suicide bombings in Bagdhad are clearly and undoubtedly a response to the US invasion…does that mean that the suicide bombers, or the cause of islamism in Iraq, is justified?

To answer the moral question, you need a bigger picture, and when you look at the bigger picture of the crusades, it is clear that the cause was unjust. The “Christian” regimes treated their people worse than the muslims did, allowed less religious freedom, and were crime ridden societies. The means used to protect them were brutal attacks on civilians and plundering.

So, I say again, the Crusades were unjust wars because they were fought using unjust means, for the unjust purpose of defending regimes that oppressed their subjects.

Edit: One thing I did just notice…
Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War.
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This is blatantly false. If there were a citation to his primary source you’d be able to tell that, but that’s the problem with pop-history…they don’t add in all those pesky footnotes so that you can read the primary for yourself.
 
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discipleofJesus:
Further Reading

Frontpage Interview with Robert Spencer
frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19360

“Jihad begot the Crusades (1)”
by Andrew G. Bostom
americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4467

“Jihad begot the Crusades (2)”
by Andrew G. Bostom
americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4470
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I sincerely hope you don’t consider any of those sites good sources of accurate historical informatin, becasue they aren’t.

Spencer is a propagandist, not a historian.

Tying the crusades to CAIR is so nutty that I can’t believe anyone would put his name on the paper that says it.
 
Hi all!

My, but y’all have kicked up quite a rhubarb here…

First, regarding the Crusades:

As a point of information, we Jews have very bitter memories of the Crusades, specifically of the massacres of Jews perpetrated by Crusaders in the Rhine Valley & in Jerusalem. I am certainly not speaking against Pope Urban II & we certainly remember how Archbishop Ruthard of Mayence and Bishop John of Speyer (among many other senior churchmen) tried as best they could to protect us, but we still remember the Crusades very poorly. If you played a word association game with most orthodox Jews like myself, who know something about the history, and said, “Crusades,” we would probably respond with words like “Fire,” “Blood,” “Slaughter,” and the like. See tinyurl.com/5rhu3 & tinyurl.com/4zjpg.

DW & I took Da Boyz (Yohanan, now 9, & Naor, now 5) up to the Galilee for a few days’ vacation in August 2004. We had a picnic lunch at the Goren National Park & enjoyed its spectacular view of the crusaders’ Montfort Castle accross the steep, wooded, valley of the Keziv stream (see gemsinisrael.com/monfortgoren.html). Yohanan asked about the castle & I told him that it was built by a group of Christians who were fighting with a group of Muslims over which one of them owned the Land. He thought that that was a real hoot: Christians & Muslims fighting over something that belongs to neither. 😉 (gemsinisrael.com/crusaders.html is a very good source for info on the Crusaders & Crusader sites in Israel. The view of the upper Jordan Valley, the lower Galilee, the heights of Gilead in Jordan & the Golan Heights, from the Crusaders’ Belvoir Castle tinyurl.com/489fq is awesome. The castle at Yehiam tinyurl.com/5dj8h in the western Galilee is pretty neat too.)

About the fire-bombing of Dresden or the torpedoing of the Wilhelm Gustloff (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KdF_Ship_Wilhelm_Gustloff), do I, as a Jew, feel bad about it? Nope, not one bit. Even if most of the Germans incinerated in Dresden or drowned on the Wilhelm Gutloff weren’t card-carrying members of the National Socialist German Workers Party, they were anywhere from passive collaborators to actve assistants in the Nazi outrages against Jews, Gypsies, etc. & fully deserved to get a taste of the horrors their nation was inflicting on the world & on humanity. By not being against Nazism (like the White Rose movement; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose), they were with it and deserved what they got.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
About the fire-bombing of Dresden or the torpedoing of the Wilhelm Gustloff (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KdF_Ship_Wilhelm_Gustloff), do I, as a Jew, feel bad about it?
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You should. Not all Germans were Nazi collaberators or Nazis themselves. Whenever innocents die, whether it’s Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, etc. it should be condemned. I condemn the brutal massacres of innocents that died during the Crusades (although I don’t think all of the crusades were bad). A small % of card carrying Nazis and Nazi sympahtizers died in Dresden.

God bless bro! I normally respect your opinion but I have to sincerely disagree with you here.
 
Hi all!

Semper Fi, I always respect your opinions (that and you’re a Marine 👍 ) but it wasn’t six million of your brothers & sisters that they murdered. Before he was hung, John Brown wrote: “I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood.” Insane as he was, he was entirely correct (Lincoln said pretty much the same thng in his Second Innaugural Address). Germany’s crimes were in blood & had to be purged in blood. The ruin & destruction that the Allied forces visited upon Germany helped pay the account. Of couse, most Germans weren’t card-carrying Nazis but they put the Nazis in power and certainly didn’t protest Nazi excesses very much, especially not when Germany was winning victory after victory. They started an awful war & needed an up-close-and-personal lesson on just how awful war is.

By the way, Israel & Germany now enjoy very close relations; I support this completely.

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Semper Fi, I always respect your opinions (that and you’re a Marine 👍 ) but it wasn’t six million of your brothers & sisters that they murdered.
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Brother, my great great grandma was a German Ashkenazic Jew so they were my distant cousins. There were also something around 5 million Catholics and Protestants that were killed during the Holocaust as well. Let’s agree to disagree? I don’t think the bombing of Dresden was ever called for or justified as it served absolutely no military purpose.

God bless!
 
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