Vatican Cracks Down On Dress Code

[KCT]

Maybe the vendors could sell something for that problem too. Or why not the Church setting up kiosks on the Square. They could sell long men’s pants and shawls and wraps and dresses (long enough of course), all sorts of things. As long as it’s done outside the basillica it might not be considered to be moneychanging in the temple. Might be a good way to increase monetary contributions.

There are lots of near by vendors that sell shawls and “paper” type disposable pants.

 

[CMatt25]

I would like to ask CMatt a few questions:

Would you think it would be appropriate if I came to Church dressed in my baseball uniform? Or Basketball uniform?

I think the problem with shorts is that some of them are immodest (especially tight fitting ones or are very short) but even ones that aren’t immodest could be considered a little too casual.

Would we wear shorts to a job that is in indoors?

The problem I see here with you is that you would leave the Church over this issue. The danger is not so much that it would ever come to your diocese. I doubt it would ever reach the US diocesan level in our lifetime but the fact that interiorly you would leave could be a problem with your relationship with God

Your baseball or basketball uniform wouldn’t bother me in the least. Maybe shower if you just played your game and if you’re all sweaty but I can withstand it if you need to get right to Mass. I can withstand quite a bit when my focus is squarely on Whom I am worshiping. See for example. It’s not going to phase me if someone walks into church barefooted. I know Jesus would not have turned that person away. So if He would not have turned that person away, whom am I to be bothered if someone comes in flip flops. I’m just rejoicing they are there!

To your 2nd question, we wouldn’t if it meant risking our jobs and if we didn’t want to take that risk. However…

That said, before you nail me let me continue my answer to your question by also saying my belief totally rejects that comparison as nothing more than apples and oranges. There is not an ounce of fiber in my body, bones, mind, or soul that in any way believes we risk salvation by disobeying a priest’s dress code and wearing the shorts I wear. But if the Church wants to embark on a worldwide dress code with a ban on decent looking shorts and claim infallibilty on this issue, and if they want to excommnicate me for wearing shorts, then no offense but sorry that will then be when I become certain the CC is not the only one true Church on earth.

A priest in TEC tradition once told me and it is indeed my belief… “No one cares about how you are dressed on the outside. It is the opening of our hearts to God on the inside that matters.”

Translated… God doesn’t care what’s on your shoulders when you’re on vacation visiting in St Peter’s Square. God cares about what’s on your heart.

Hope that helps. That’s my belief. God bless you on your faith journey and peace!

 

[DWC_RC]

Your baseball or basketball uniform wouldn’t bother me in the least. Maybe shower if you just played your game and if you’re all sweaty but I can withstand it if you need to get right to Mass. I can withstand quite a bit when my focus is squarely on Whom I am worshiping. See for example. It’s not going to phase me if someone walks into church barefooted. I know Jesus would not have turned that person away. So if He would not have turned that person away, whom am I to be bothered if someone comes in flip flops. I’m just rejoicing they are there!

To your 2nd question, we wouldn’t if it meant risking our jobs and if we didn’t want to take that risk. However…

That said, before you nail me let me continue my answer to your question by also saying my belief totally rejects that comparison as nothing more than apples and oranges. There is not an ounce of fiber in my body, bones, mind, or soul that in any way believes we risk salvation by disobeying a priest’s dress code and wearing the shorts I wear. But if the Church wants to embark on a worldwide dress code with a ban on decent looking shorts and claim infallibilty on this issue, and if they want to excommnicate me for wearing shorts, then no offense but sorry that will then be when I become certain the CC is not the only one true Church on earth.

A priest in TEC tradition once told me and it is indeed my belief… “No one cares about how you are dressed on the outside. It is the opening of our hearts to God on the inside that matters.”

Translated… God doesn’t care what’s on your shoulders when you’re on vacation visiting in St Peter’s Square. God cares about what’s on your heart.

Hope that helps. That’s my belief. God bless you on your faith journey and peace!

That is your problem. You try to make God’s Church into what you want rather than following the rules and traditions that have been laid down before you.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Authority is a big problem with US Catholics. In my family, what the Holy Father says is what goes. He is the Vicar of Christ. What he says matters.

Sure, but only in the areas in which he is competent to demonstrate his authority.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sure, but only in the areas in which he is competent to demonstrate his authority.

You mean you feel that bishops don’t have authority to institute things like dress codes? That it would have to come from the Pope? I mean, doesn’t the Pope delegate authority to bishops for just such situations? Don’t bishops have the right to make prudential pastoral decisions?

And if the Holy Father did give the bishops a direction (having been guided by the Holy Spirit): My dear bishops: As part of the responsibility of upholding Catholic tradition, and to help the faithful by outward as well as inward gesture to demonstrate the sacredness of space in the liturgy of the Mass, we require you to make it clear (as ‘common sense guidelines of dress’ appear not to be followed currently in the U.S. etc.) that certain articles of clothing should not be worn by men (X, X) and certain articles not worn by women (X,X). This is not to say that these clothes are sinful in themselves, but that they are not appropriate for Mass and the Eucharist which is the Source and Summit of Christian Life, and they are not appropriate to show RESPECT to the One who is Father but also LORD of us all". . .

You’d say, “Meh, he is not COMPETENT to make a judgment about what people wear to Mass?”

 

[smithm29]

“You’re not competent to tell me what to wear on your property.”

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

You mean you feel that bishops don’t have authority to institute things like dress codes? That it would have to come from the Pope? I mean, doesn’t the Pope delegate authority to bishops for just such situations? Don’t bishops have the right to make prudential pastoral decisions?

You misread my response to DWC_RC. In response to his “In my family, what the Holy Father says is what goes. He is the Vicar of Christ. What he says matters.” I said that such is true only in the areas in which he is competent.

If the Pope said that the only good restaurant in Rome was Luigi’s Trattoria, and that Catholic pilgrims to Rome had to eat there, I’d say that such statements were outside his competence and that Catholics are not obliged either to believe him or to follow his instruction. Or, if the Pope gave his opinion on gun laws in Arkansas, it would be worth hearing, but the subject is outside his area of competence relative to definitiveness.

The Pope is NOT omniscient and omnipotent. He is not competent in all areas. Don’t read into a statement any more than is there.

 

[smithm29]

But, in his role as patriarch of the Roman Church, he is competent to implement discipline on the Roman Church, isn’t he? He can tell us what to eat and what not to eat through canons on fasting, he can tell us what to wear and what not to wear by canons on dress (as controversial as it is, the canon on the veil is missing- so is the veil), and he can tell us how to have sex by canons on sex.

To be fair, he does these things in a formulaic way, after consultation with the curia and (hopefully) the college of bishops. He has not made an authoritative statement about dress at mass. It’s unlikely that he ever will. The most likely thing that would happen is the congregation would write guidelines on dress for the episcopal conferences to implement according to local cultural norms.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You misread my response to DWC_RC. In response to his “In my family, what the Holy Father says is what goes. He is the Vicar of Christ. What he says matters.” I said that such is true only in the areas in which he is competent.

If the Pope said that the only good restaurant in Rome was Luigi’s Trattoria, and that Catholic pilgrims to Rome had to eat there, I’d say that such statements were outside his competence and that Catholics are not obliged either to believe him or to follow his instruction. Or, if the Pope gave his opinion on gun laws in Arkansas, it would be worth hearing, but the subject is outside his area of competence relative to definitiveness.

The Pope is NOT omniscient and omnipotent. He is not competent in all areas. Don’t read into a statement any more than is there.

I get your point, Rich, but the Pope is not giving an ‘opinion’ if he requests bishops to institute a dress code, is he?

There is a HUGE difference between the Pope speaking as the Head of the Church (and making a directive regarding ANYTHING, dogma, doctrine or discipline) and the Pope speaking outside of his ‘role’.

It seems to me that you do not feel the Pope has a ‘right’ (or the bishops) to institute a dress code for Church (and obviously there are going to be ‘exceptions’ as there always have been, in that say a poor homeless man is not going to be turned away, but in fact will be given a place of honor and, after Mass, be taken by the priest to be washed, clothed in proper attire, and fed, for example).

Of course, one wonders if God appeared in front of Joe and Jane Average ‘wear what we choose’ Catholic and said, “I’d like to walk and talk with you for a while, and take you with me to a wonderful banquet of the choicest food --will you rise, put on your ‘wedding garment’ and come with me” --and he handed Joe a suit and tie, and Jane a modest dress–would Joe and Jane say, “Thanks but no thanks, God, I don’t want to be bothered putting on these things. Either I ‘go with you as is’, or I stay here without you.”

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

But, in his role as patriarch of the Roman Church, he is competent to implement discipline on the Roman Church, isn’t he? He can tell us what to eat and what not to eat through canons on fasting,

Yes, he can order us to not eat meat on Friday, but he can’t tell us what fish to eat or how to cook it in place of meat.

he can tell us what to wear and what not to wear by canons on dress (as controversial as it is, the canon on the veil is missing- so is the veil)

Only somewhat. He can say that women must be modestly dressed in church, but he can’t tell them that they can’t wear green dresses when they’re at home.

and he can tell us how to have sex by canons on sex.

Again, somewhat. He can tell Catholics that the aim of coitus in marriage must be directed towards procreation, but types of foreplay are up to the couple.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, he can order us to not eat meat on Friday, but he can’t tell us what fish to eat or how to cook it in place of meat.

Only somewhat. He can say that women must be modestly dressed in church, but he can’t tell them that they can’t wear green dresses when they’re at home.

Again, somewhat. He can tell Catholics that the aim of coitus in marriage must be directed towards procreation, but types of foreplay are up to the couple.

So he CAN institute a dress code for Church, which is what I have been saying all along. I have mentioned absolutely NOTHING about what one wears ‘outside’ Church, Rich.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I get your point, Rich, but the Pope is not giving an ‘opinion’ if he requests bishops to institute a dress code, is he?

There is a HUGE difference between the Pope speaking as the Head of the Church (and making a directive regarding ANYTHING, dogma, doctrine or discipline) and the Pope speaking outside of his ‘role’.

That’s exactly what I said. He has areas of competence and areas where his is only personal opinion.

It seems to me that you do not feel the Pope has a ‘right’ (or the bishops) to institute a dress code for Church

Never said that. I said that if one encounters a church where one does not care for the pastor’s dress code, one can go to another Catholic church which doesn’t have the same restrictions -( and keep in mind that my beef was with prohibitions against slacks for women - which are more modest than skirts or dresses.) I don’t deny the pastor of that first church to have such a dress code, just that I would choose not to attend there.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That’s exactly what I said. He has areas of competence and areas where his is only personal opinion.

Never said that. I said that if one encounters a church where one does not care for the pastor’s dress code, one can go to another Catholic church which doesn’t have the same restrictions -( and keep in mind that my beef was with prohibitions against slacks for women - which are more modest than skirts or dresses.) I don’t deny the pastor of that first church to have such a dress code, just that I would choose not to attend there.

Well, we can agree to disagree on whether slacks are more modest than skirts or dresses, as I’m sure that some of the ‘skintight’ capris are a heck of a lot less modest than my calf length, A-line, heavy cotton or wool dresses! But then again, a pair of medium to heavy weight, loosely cut slacks are more modest than some backless mini halter dress, for sure.

Now, IF for some pastoral reason all the bishops of your diocese instituted a dress code where women were to wear dresses only and men suits, it might be a sacrifice (perhaps your wife could wear a loose tunic dress over leggings? That would not only cover her legs appropriately and be as comfortable as slacks but also allow for the ‘dress’ part) for some, but wouldn’t you think that even if you didn’t think it was a ‘good reason’, that the bishops might ‘know best?’

Not ALL of our U.S. bishops have been guilty of poor judgment in other areas. . .in fact, the majority of them right now either were not involved at all in the scandal or have done penance and have tried to rectify their errors. So just because some bishops made a mistake, not in what they were TEACHING but in the way they reacted to WRONGS DONE by their priests–doesn’t mean that we can’t trust them to make judgments about how we need to live (and eat, sing, dress, etc.) as Christians, right?

 

[CMatt25]

That is your problem. You try to make God’s Church into what you want rather than following the rules and traditions that have been laid down before you.

You highlighted in red my words, “That’s my belief” so I assume you are referring to my belief as my problem. It is sad when people do not recognize their own beliefs as just that. Faith and belief. Even those who believe in following all “the rules and traditions that have been laid down” must have faith in the those rules and traditions as having been correctly laid down and faith in the ecclesial body’s interpretation of itself which is doing the laying. So what many of even the most devout faithful Catholics on CAF do not seem to grasp is their faith is simply that too Their belief. God bless you on your walk of faith and peace.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Now, IF for some pastoral reason all the bishops of your diocese instituted a dress code where women were to wear dresses only and men suits, it might be a sacrifice (perhaps your wife could wear a loose tunic dress over leggings? That would not only cover her legs appropriately and be as comfortable as slacks but also allow for the ‘dress’ part) for some, but wouldn’t you think that even if you didn’t think it was a ‘good reason’, that the bishops might ‘know best?’

No, I’d still think they didn’t have a good reason and that they didn’t know what they were talking about, but I and my wife would obey.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You highlighted in red my words, “That’s my belief” so I assume you are referring to my belief as my problem. It is sad when people do not recognize their own beliefs as just that. Faith and belief. Even those who believe in following all “the rules and traditions that have been laid down” must have faith in the those rules and traditions as having been correctly laid down and faith in the ecclesial body’s interpretation of itself which is doing the laying. So what many of even the most devout faithful Catholics on CAF do not seem to grasp is their faith is simply that too Their belief. God bless you on your walk of faith and peace.

Wait, Matt. Are you saying that there is no ‘absolute’ truth or belief? That any given Catholic’s knowledge of the faith is 'only’ their (that is, individual) ‘belief’, and that one person’s belief, whether it differs so materially from another’s that it is in fact an OPPOSITE belief, is 'just as good?"

That sounds a bit like indifferentism. . .that since nobody can really know ‘what is truth’, that what ‘works for you’ is as good as what ‘works for me’ even if they’re two completely opposite things. That doesn’t sound like Catholic teaching at all.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, I’d still think they didn’t have a good reason and that they didn’t know what they were talking about, but I and my wife would obey.

And that, Rich, would be the mark of a humble and obedient Catholic whom Christ will greet with “Well done, good and faithful servants. Blessed are you who did not see (the point of what was required of you in obedience) but still believed (in the authority of my bishops, even when you did not yourselves accept it in reason or understanding, but did what they asked anyway.)”

God bless you. I know how often I struggle and have through the years with the whole ‘humility and obedience’ issue; I think it is especially hard when it seems as if ALL authority is at best stupid, and at worst greedy, venal and corrupt. . .but to know that others would (though with a sigh and a “Good Lord what are they thinking?”) still humbly submit and trust in the Lord is very heartening.

 

[Blairamir]

IMHO there should be a dress code against immodest clothing at churches and other sacred sites. And everyone should behave well and control his or her words; this is the general expectation for Christians at all times, but we should also pray for our weaker brothers and sisters. I live in California and it gets pretty hot, so many people wear shorts, T-shirts, sandals, etc., to mass and throughout the week. C’est la vie. Can we also get a restriction on cheap perfume?

I’ve been to Armenian Orthodox church services many times and just about everybody dresses formally - very nice.

 

[CMatt25]

Now, IF for some pastoral reason all the bishops of your diocese instituted a dress code where women were to wear dresses only and men suits, it might be a sacrifice (perhaps your wife could wear a loose tunic dress over leggings? That would not only cover her legs appropriately and be as comfortable as slacks but also allow for the ‘dress’ part) for some, but wouldn’t you think that even if you didn’t think it was a ‘good reason’, that the bishops might ‘know best?’

So just because some bishops made a mistake, not in what they were TEACHING but in the way they reacted to WRONGS DONE by their priests–doesn’t mean that we can’t trust them to make judgments about how we need to live (and eat, sing, dress, etc.) as Christians, right?

I’m unclear if Rich even reasonably thinks such a dress code of dresses and suits only is ever going to be instituted in his Little Rock, Arkansas diocese let alone in every diocese worldwide.

SDAs tell their faithful what not to eat. They even base it on OT dietary laws. Maybe you’re in the wrong faith group Tantum if you want to be told what to eat. Nah. I know an SDA lady. She doesn’t wear any makeup nor drink alcohol along with not eating certain foods. But she wears slacks to Sabbath services. So that wouldn’t work for ya.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m unclear if Rich would go to a different diocese or if he even reasonably thinks such a dress code of dresses and suits only is ever going to be instituted in his Little Rock, Arkansas diocese let alone in every diocese worldwide.

SDAs tell their faithful what not to eat. They even base it on OT dietary laws. Maybe you’re in the wrong faith group Tantum if you want to be told what to eat. Nah. I know an SDA lady. She doesn’t wear any makeup nor drink alcohol along with not eating certain foods. But she wears slacks to Sabbath services. So that woouldn’t work for ya.

Oh, **I’m **not in the wrong ‘faith group’ Matt (though since I think the Catholic faith is the whole truth I don’t put it on some kind of ‘equal’ footing with faith groups which have ‘less than’ the whole truth doctrinally speaking)–though certainly individuals who belong to those groups can be far ‘greater’ followers of Christ as individuals than an individual Catholic --vice versa of course,

**Wherever **did you get the idea that I wanted to be told what to eat, how to dress etc.? I’m as much an individual as any other person, Matt. I like to have a choice, and I try (and pray) to choose what God wants. Which means that if God (or one whom God has given legitimate authority to) says that I need to do something that I might not personally choose, I submit. . .precisely BECAUSE it is ‘hard’ to be **humble and to permit another ‘dust and ashes human’ to have authority over me. **

But only when the person has authority and is doing God’s will.