Vatican debunks reports of female cardinals [CC]

[McCall1981]

What is it with people in the First World taking all of this wayyyy out of context?

Is the media so desperate to push its liberal agenda they’ll resort to sloppy, inaccurate reporting to accomplish this goal?

No, they will resort to outright lying.

 

[ProVobis]

What isn’t clear is whether the ruling from the Council of Trent was a discipline or a dogma. What parts of Trent are discipline/law and which parts are dogma?

The council did indeed declare doctrine and dogma. Although Session XXIV did deal with matters of doctrine, those were confined to matrimony. The part concerning cardinals was mentioned under decrees under “Norms Of Procedure In The Election Of Bishops And Cardinals.”

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT24.HTM

The website translates the Latin as follows:

Each and all of the particulars relative to the life, age, learning and the other qualifications of those who are to be appointed bishops, which have been determined elsewhere by this council, the same It decrees are to be required in the election of the cardinals of the holy Roman Church, even though they be deacons, whom the most holy Roman pontiff shall, in so far as it can be conveniently done, choose from all the nations of Christendom according as he finds them competent.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Its “Theoretically and Theologically” possible that I could be a Cardinal too and all the millions of lay Catholics.

It would be madness to make us Cardinals though. There was probably a good reason why the practice of having Cardinals from outside the clergy fell out of favor.

EDIT: I assume, next, someone might even argue that all Catholics should be made Cardinals so that they can have a vote who the Pope will be This is what happens when everything that is not doctrine or dogma is considered ready to be struck down and changed as one pleases.

 

[Suudy]

The council did indeed declare doctrine and dogma. Although Session XXIV did deal with matters of doctrine, those were confined to matrimony. The part concerning cardinals was mentioned under decrees under “Norms Of Procedure In The Election Of Bishops And Cardinals.”

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT24.HTM

Thank you for the link. That was very helpful. (And I mean that sincerely. Thanks!)

 

[Tony_the_mad]

I haven’t read the link that was posted by Robert Bay; that would be a better source of information. In theory, women could probably be named to Vatican posts without being Cardinals. Or with some–a lot of–changes to the Cardinalate, “lay” unordained cardinals might be a possibility. But a two tier cardinalate would be a stretch, and would lead to confusion on the part of ordinary Catholics, not to mention the press. Trust me, it’s not going to happen.

It may or may not be a stretch. It is certainly not the type of change that a Pope should make quickly or take lightly. There would be other difficulties as well, such as finding a suitable woman Cardinal that would take the job. I would guess that many of the most qualified women are also ones that are more conservative; although that is just a guess.

The least of my worries, though, is the press or confusion among ordinary Catholics. The former is largely irrelevant. The later can be easily rectified by a good education strategy.

Pope Francis has mentioned that he thinks that the Church has to find a way to have women in more places of leadership in the Church. But that goal is made very difficult because of the tradition that all priests are male combined with the tradition that all positions of leadership are priests (that is what the term hierarchy means government by priests). Women priests, deacons, and bishops are out of the question. That does not leave much that has not been done already. Women already have prominent positions in the leadership of dioceses under the Bishops, but who notices that. Having more women in prominent positions in the Vatican that are traditionally held by Cardinals may help.

It is quite possible that the Pope will come up with a solution to this problem that I have not thought of. But to me, the only way to increase the prominence of women in the leadership of the Church that is possible without violating tradition and severely jeopardizing our relationship with other Churches such as Orthodox Churches is to appoint women Cardinals. Such a change would take serious thought, prayer, and groundwork. It would involve a lot of potentially confusing changes and would open the Pope up to charges of arrogance. But doing nothing has a price as well.

 

[Elizium23]

If Francis ever did this, what are the chances that his successor abolishes them faster than Francis abolished the mozzetta?

 

[CutlerB]

Francis didn’t “abolish” the mozzetta. He simply doesn’t use it, and that is his personal preference, just as Benedict XVI used it by preference and didn’t “prescribe” it.

 

[ProVobis]

If Francis ever did this, what are the chances that his successor abolishes them faster than Francis abolished the mozzetta?

You bring up a good point. Although it is claimed that a Pope can overturn any previous non-doctrinal non-dogmatic teaching or practice, he himself is subject to be overturned by his successor, making him look irrelevant (for lack of a better word) for future generations. His actions must still be respected, however.

On the subject of authority,

Authoritative. Finally, the Church teaches things which are neither proposed as formally revealed or definitively proposed. This is the category of authoritative teaching. Anything in the Catechism or a pope’s writings and addresses that is not “of divine and catholic faith” if clearly meant to take a position, without deciding it by proposing it as revealed or as definitive, is authoritively taught. It should receive “religious obedience of intellect and will,” as opposed to the assent of faith. Such obedience is an act of justice. It shows the respect Catholics owe the Pope, and it humbly acknowledges that by charism and grace of vocation the Pope is more likely to be right than those who disagree with him. As Vatican II noted, the weight to be given such teaching is “according to the mind and the will manifested; this is shown especially by the nature of the documents, by the frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or by the tenor of the verbal expression.” ****Thus, more weight would have to be given to something taught many times by successive popes than to something taught once by one pope. ****

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=564105&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

 

[JimG]

. . . . .Women already have prominent positions in the leadership of dioceses under the Bishops, but who notices that. Having more women in prominent positions in the Vatican that are traditionally held by Cardinals may help.
. . . .

It seems to me that a lot of people notice that a good deal of parish and diocesan function is accomplished by women. Women are everywhere in parish and diocese leadership, not to mention in Catholic institutions such as schools and hospitals and charities.

What ‘problem’ would women cardinals be intended to cure? It might just make the Church seem to be a women’s world from which men would be increasingly disconnected.

 

[Joe_5859]

Cardinal is an honorific office of the Church which is purely part of the structural governance. The position has no relation to the sacrament of Holy Orders or any facet of faith or morals. Jesus did not institute the office of Cardinal and it is not found in the Orthodox Churches, nor the primitive Church. It has undergone much evolution in the Roman Church. Since we know it has nothing to do with sacramental theology, faith and morals, Sacred Scripture or Holy Tradition, and it is totally man-made, we can be confident that this is a disciplinary matter and not doctrinal. It is therefore changeable. What changes are effected are more or less entirely up to the Roman Pontiff. So the question of women being admitted to the rank of Cardinal is squarely on the Pope’s shoulders.

That being said, any Pope who decides to change this discipline should be prepared to answer some hard questions about the clerical nature of the office. Nobody has ever been cardinal and ineligible for Holy Orders. The College always selects the next Pope from their own ranks and therefore women would be second-class citizens in the College. There are currently no lay Cardinals at all, not even men. So admitting women to the College would be a significant rupture with small-t tradition.

That’s a nice summary. Indeed, there would be lots of questions to respond to, which I think is why Fr. Lombardi is pretty insistent that there is no way it would happen by February. This is not a change that would be lightly made.

If Francis ever did this, what are the chances that his successor abolishes them faster than Francis abolished the mozzetta?

Of course, I have doubts that this will ever happen, but even if it did, I wouldn’t count on a future pope turning back from it. Such would make him hugely unpopular.