Vatican denies pope is open to recognition of gay civil unions

[marymary1975]

No matter what you say, none of other PopI amwere twisted like Pope Francis in the way to help the evil. And years ago gay union was not as bad as of today. You can be very righteous by saying if people do not check and dig the origin, it is their fault, but you cannot deny the majority will not check and dig. That is why to have clear teaching is very important. This Pope said “who am I to judge?” Look how many times it is quoted for various reasons?You can disagree a thousand times but you cannot deny facts.

If I come out and publish something that says that Albert Einstein inssistes that 2+2=42, would you believe it? Do you think the majority of the population would believe it? No, right! And the reason why neither you mor the majority of the population would believe and article that says that is because: we are talking about a basic principle of common knowdge; and one person with the experience, education, knowledge and position of Albert Einstein stating that does not make sense. Same thing as for the pope!! If there is one basic fact of common knowledge regarding the church (I am sorry but even the most ignorant atheist knows the church’s position on the subject), does it makes sense to you that someone in the position of Pope, with its knowledge, experience and education is going is going to make a statement favoring homosexuality? If the answer is obviously no, then yes you must check the origin of the statement because you should have known better. If there is something you SHOULD have known, then is your fault.

Also, do you think that having priests teaching that hell does not exist is not a way of cooperation with evil?

Finally, look at my previous post. The pope did not say who Iam to judge.

 

[nothingeasy]

Again you are wrong. The word “judge” in Italian is “giudice”. The word judge in Spanish is “juzgar.”. Show me the piece of the original interview either in Spanish/Italian in which the pope uses the words “juzgar” or “giudice”

What the Pope said was “si una persona gay sinceramente esta buscando a Dios, quien soy yo para criticarlos.”. The word which the Pope used (note it is neither juzgar nor giudice) means badmouthing in a hateful way, so literally what he said (in the full context of the sentence is: if someone is gay and that person is looking for God with a sincere heart, who am I to badmouth the person hatefully."

The Pope in a very smart way AVOIDED the use of the word judge precisely he knows the word creates ambiguity and instead choose a word that mean hatefully badmouthing. Also note he says IF the person is SINCERELY…i. e. The person has actual constrisction and is looking for God. He was very clear and stated exactly the catholic doctrine. That the media mistranslated his word to turn it into an ambiguous statement and they took words out of context is a completely different story.

not sure how you think

badmouthing in a hateful way

is better than judging. calling something a sin is not badmouthing in a hatful way. I doubt that what the pope meant but its what I’m getting from your translation. where as judging means who am I to say they are going to hell.

 

[marymary1975]

Thank you for that. I just learned something new. The secular media is very slick and tricky.

Living word the word critical in Spanish is used specifically to describe the very particular behavior of two people sitting down and saying: do you see X person, he is such a stupid idiot, he is a horrible person and a &#&#$@%* I wish something bad happens to him such a bastard I hate him etc… What the pope is doing is describing a very specific behavior which you see a lot in catholic churches of people sitting and badmouthing the life of others when they are doing wither the same or worst. It means basically hateful criticism of others .

 

[SuperLuigi]

Well that’s because legalized gay marriage in Italy might mean the Vatican would have to honor it. What a victory that would be for the LGBTQ community.

It won’t be a victory for anyone. The LGBTQ community is getting sold down the river on the issue on a boat of lies by many who don’t have their best interests at heart.

The Vatican will not comply with Italian law that is contrary to Catholic teaching, and besides, Vatican City is an independent nation.

 

[PTL]

Again you are wrong.

You repeatedly say I am wrong and you are right. Please know I fully realize you are very righteous. You are always right. Others are always wrong.

Originally by marymary1975
The word which the Pope used (note it is neither juzgar nor giudice) means badmouthing in a hateful way, so literally what he said (in the full context of the sentence is: if someone is gay and that person is looking for God with a sincere heart, who am I to badmouth the person hatefully."

You obviously are very smart also. You know different languages with no mistake. But majority of us don’t. That’s exactly my point the whole time. The Pope needs to be very clear for the ordinary people who do not know the original language, and who are not well catechized, and who don’t know how to dig deep.

I just received an email from my friend who says:

Originally from a friend’s email
Look at all the constant articles - to explain what he didn’t mean - that his statement “who am I to judge” has brought about. I really wish he had been more clear. He could have said “who am I to judge, but God is the final judge and his law clearly states that the practice of homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of the church that Jesus started, the Catholic Church.”

If it was said that clear like the above quote, no matter what language was used, there will be no misunderstanding, no twist.

Feel free to come back and say my friend is wrong too. I have made my points. I won’t continue my conversation with someone who is so righteous, who repeatedly accuse other people are wrong in a discussion.

 

[marymary1975]

not sure how you think is better than judging. calling something a sin is not badmouthing in a hatful way. I doubt that what the pope meant but its what I’m getting from your translation. where as judging means who am I to say they are going to hell.

As I said above, the pope is describing a very specific behavior. I know this because this particularly is a massive problem in Latin America and Argentina and the issue of critical within the church is a big time issue. Him being from Argentina makes a lot of sense that he is describing this situation. Again he could have chosen to use the word juzgar which he didn’t and I think he didn’t use it very he wanted to be very clear as to what he is talking about.

 

[TEPO]

It won’t be a victory for anyone. The LGBTQ community is getting sold down the river on the issue on a boat of lies by many who don’t have their best interests at heart.

The Vatican will not comply with Italian law that is contrary to Catholic teaching, and besides, Vatican City is an independent nation.

Just imagine two homosexuals taking marital vows in front of the Sistine Chapel. If Italy legalized gay marriage, who could stop them?

I’d imagine that would probably become the thing-to-do, after considering how deceitful the LGBTQ inspired media acts.

 

[McCall1981]

Just imagine two homosexuals taking marital vows in front of the Sistine Chapel. If Italy legalized gay marriage, who could stop them?

I’d imagine that would probably become the thing-to-do, after considering how deceitful the LGBTQ inspired media acts.

The Vatican City State is an independent country, Italy’s laws would have no effect on it.

I mean, I’d imagine people try to do that now anyway, but I don’t see how a change to Italy’s laws would effect the Vatican.

 

[nothingeasy]

As I said above, the pope is describing a very specific behavior. I know this because this particularly is a massive problem in Latin America and Argentina and the issue of critical within the church is a big time issue. .

could you explain what you mean by the highlighted part. are you saying the church uses this language of hate in south america

 

[TEPO]

The Vatican City State is an independent country, Italy’s laws would have no effect on it.

I mean, I’d imagine people try to do that now anyway, but I don’t see how a change to Italy’s laws would effect the Vatican.

I thought Vatican City had to honor the laws of Italy to some extent even though it has some level of independence. I could be wrong, I just thought I read that somewhere once.

 

[marymary1975]

You repeatedly say I am wrong and you are right. Please know I fully realize you are very righteous. You are always right. Others are always wrong.

You obviously are very [24,smart** also. You know different languages with no mistake. But majority of us don’t. That’s exactly my point the whole time. The Pope needs to be very clear for the ordinary people who do not know the original language, and who are not well catechized, and who don’t know how to dig deep.

I just received an email from my friend who says:

If it was said that clear like the above quote, no matter what language was used, there will be no misunderstanding, no twist.

Feel free to come back and say my friend is wrong too. I have made my points. I won’t continue my conversation with someone who is so righteous, who repeatedly accuse other people are wrong in a discussion.

I am not righteous, I am discussing a statement of fact: Did the pope use the word “judge”? No he didn’t. You keep insisting that he said who am I to judge, I am telling that what you are saying is wrong because he did not say that. Is a statement of fact nothing else.

I do understand that not everyone in the US is a Spanish or Italian speaker but I go back to my analogy. If you see an article that says that Albert Einstein gaave a lecture in German in which he states that 2+2=24 would you believe that? You may not speak German but it doesn’t make sense. Do not belief something just because you hear it if it doesn’t make sense.

My point is it is not the Pope’s fault that the secular media manipulates information to get people against the church. This is not new. This occurs probably from Jesus’ days. Any catholic should know that you cannot trust the secular media when it comes to the church. I learned it back when I heard that john pope declared that you don’t need religion to save yourself and my reaction, he could have not said that ever. So what you probably need to tell your friend is that too, secular media hates the church and they twist everything. Do not believe anything re the church published in the media without verifying the actual and entire statement first.

 

[marymary1975]

could you explain what you mean by the highlighted part. are you saying the church uses this language of hate in south america

Not the church itself i. e. Priests, the parishioners. Usually the parishioners that tend to donate most money to the church and the ones that are constantly beh ind the skirts of the priests or the ones who spend the entire day in the church and the ones that belong to the high class. In my youth days we used to refer to them as the rich old ladies from the church. They are behind the priest and in the church the entire day and they only badmouth the younger parishioners or the people that do not belong to their circle.

 

[livingwordunity]

not sure how you think is better than judging. calling something a sin is not badmouthing in a hatful way. I doubt that what the pope meant but its what I’m getting from your translation. where as judging means who am I to say they are going to hell.

We can judge people’s actions like how you judged the actions of another poster by commenting on her post. Judging someone doesn’t necessarily equate to hating them. That’s how saying don’t hate someone is less ambiguous than saying don’t judge someone.

 

[McCall1981]

I thought Vatican City had to honor the laws of Italy to some extent even though it has some level of independence. I could be wrong, I just thought I read that somewhere once.

As far as I know, they are independent, and I know they have their own legal and court system. But maybe they are tied to Italy in some ways, I guess if anyone knows more specifics, please chime in.

 

[SuperLuigi]

When the Pope said, “Who am I to judge?” the media ripped that out of the context of the rest of what he said. When seen in context, it’s clear that the Pope said nothing new. We have to remember that Pope Francis is still a new Pope. And, the Vatican has made attempts to correct the media’s misrepresentations. All of the confusion is the media’s fault for exploiting their power of propaganda by selectively twisting the Pope’s words and jumping to wild conclusions.

That’s probably because in their view “judging” is disagreeing with progressive polices.

“Against so-called “gay marriage”?? Don’t judge me/it/them!!! Who are YOU to do that!!!”

 

[nothingeasy]

We can judge people’s actions like how you judged the actions of another poster by commenting on her post. Judging someone doesn’t necessarily equate to hating them. That’s how saying don’t hate someone is less ambiguous than saying don’t judge someone.

how is that judging someone actions, if you read my post it is far from judging anyone actions, I simple posted what her translation means to me and included I don’t think that’s what the pope meant. I wanted to tease out what exactly the meaning of her interpertation

please don’t try to twist my comments

 

[Lormar]

The pope is not causing any scandal or giving any unclear teaching. The media is publishing things he didn’t say. What does that have to do with inability?

Mary, first of all thank you for telling us what word the pope actually used.

My question, not just for you but for anyone else here, is then why hasn’t Father Lombardi, or any other spokesman for the Vatican, corrected that mistranslation? Instead, it has continued to be used by Catholics against Catholics. For instance, in yesterday’s paper, there was an article about a small protest group (thirty people) in some State using that quote to protest the firing of a homosexual teacher living with his partner from a Catholic school.

 

[livingwordunity]

As far as I know, they are independent, and I know they have their own legal and court system. But maybe they are tied to Italy in some ways, I guess if anyone knows more specifics, please chime in.

Here’s something from the CIA World Factbook about the Vatican.

Background:

Popes in their secular role ruled portions of the Italian peninsula for more than a thousand years until the mid 19th century, when many of the Papal States were seized by the newly united Kingdom of Italy. In 1870, the pope’s holdings were further circumscribed when Rome itself was annexed. Disputes between a series of “prisoner” popes and Italy were resolved in 1929 by three Lateran Treaties, which established the independent state of Vatican City and granted Roman Catholicism special status in Italy. In 1984, a concordat between the Holy See and Italy modified certain of the earlier treaty provisions, including the primacy of Roman Catholicism as the Italian state religion. Present concerns of the Holy See include religious freedom, threats against minority Christian communities in Africa and the Middle East, sexual misconduct by clergy, international development, interreligious dialogue and reconciliation, and the application of church doctrine in an era of rapid change and globalization. About 1.2 billion people worldwide profess Catholicism - the world’s largest Christian faith.

Independence:

11 February 1929 (from Italy); note - the three treaties signed with Italy on 11 February 1929 acknowledged, among other things, the full sovereignty of the Holy See and established its territorial extent; however, the origin of the Papal States, which over centuries varied considerably in extent, may be traced back to 754

Source

 

[KrazyKat]

Not the church itself i. e. Priests, the parishioners. Usually the parishioners that tend to donate most money to the church and the ones that are constantly beh ind the skirts of the priests or the ones who spend the entire day in the church and the ones that belong to the high class. In my youth days we used to refer to them as the rich old ladies from the church. They are behind the priest and in the church the entire day and they only badmouth the younger parishioners or the people that do not belong to their circle.

True. See that here in my area. The ones who donate the most money rule the church. When a priest refuses their demands that priest is gone ASAP.

 

[livingwordunity]

how is that judging someone actions, if you read my post it is far from judging anyone actions, I simple posted what her translation means to me and included I don’t think that’s what the pope meant. I wanted to tease out what exactly the meaning of her interpertation

please don’t try to twist my comments

If you define ‘judging’ in absolute terms then we all judge each other and the world around us all the time. There is no one who is an exception to this.