Vatican hit by gay sex scandal

[ConfusedTim]

Whether we like it or not our church is and always has been under attack from satan. There have been scandals in the past, present and there will be in the future. The biggest scandal of all happened at the start of the church when one of the apostles betrayed Jesus - we will not see a scandal bigger than that EVER.

 

[Other_Eric]

Hiyas

I understand what you are saying…but I must ask…unless they were openly and practicing gay…just how do you intend to defend?

There are many in government…charities…religious…teachers etc et al …who are of same sex attractions who do not openly act. How many are ‘closeted’ ?

We, as Catholics, are called to Social justice issues. These allegations of sexual misconduct are not yet substantiated.

What litmus test would you have the Vatican impose?

As always, just my thoughts

Why should we limit the restriction just to those who are, as you say, “open and practicing?” Isn’t it precisely those who remain hidden that present the most danger to the Church and her institutions? Rather than cast wide the doors of employment and respect to anyone who can mimic orthodoxy for five minutes, the Church and any ministries that operate using her name, ought screen members for grave psychological deviations, such as same-sex attractions. Commendably, the psychologists at NARTH have developed tests which, as I understand it, can weed such individuals out with a high degree of accuracy, generating only a few false positives. We must remember that the raison d’être of the Church’s teaching on Social Justice is the support of families, not individuals who, by reason of a diseased psychology, cannot do anything other than threaten the family.

 

[StephenFrancis]

Let’s not confuse this with a mere case of a surrender to concupiscence common to us all. Instead, let’s look at this case for what it is: the grave scandal brought on by allowing those who experience same-sex attractions anywhere near the Church and her work. That these men only worked in a lay capacity is completely irrelevant. Once we keep in mind that we are discussing the cases of two individuals who never should have been in the positions they held in the first place, our conversation will begin to bear more fruit.

As a same sex attracted Catholic Christian, I am angry and saddened at your attitude, Eric. You obviously do not know the issues nor the grace of God towards those of us from any and all backgrounds–nor the teaching of the Church on homosexuality.

We are no more and no less prone to sin, whether sexual or otherwise, than others. We are not child molestors nor infiltrators into the Church. Some of us are, yes, and so are some heterosexuals–in fact, many heterosexuals are involved in everything from prostitution to child abuse. Sin is sin. My story was featured, by God’s grace, on this website in THIS ROCK magazine and is still posted. Feel free to read it. I am a celibate Catholic Christian and have been for a number of years now. How many who are permanently single and straight can say that? We have as much right to work in the Church, in any aspect God allows, as any others. I am sorry to see such malicious prejudice coming from such a story as this one. Sorry, yes, surprised, unfortunately not.

Oh, the link to my story: www.catholic.com/thisrock/0809dr– I think that is correct! In any case it is in the DAMASCUS ROAD section of the September 2008 THIS ROCK magazine, printed and distributed by Catholic Answers, who also produce this site. God bless.

 

[StephenFrancis]

Let me correct that link, it is catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0809dr.asp. Again I speak with God’s love but would ask that we do not turn this into a discussion on the evils of same sex attracted people. That is both unkind and inaccurate. Take care.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Will it ever end?

guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/04/vatican-gay-sex-scandal

Christ chose twelve apostles Himself, and one of them was robbing the apostolic purse.

This sort of thing has gone on since the beginning, and it will continue to happen till the end of time.

At no time did the Vatican make any attempt to cover it up. It’s the cover ups that do the real damage.

In fact, the Vatican was probably not even aware of it, although I suspect that spiritual cardinals priests etc. who were in contact with Balducci might have had a sense of unease or suspicion. But without physical proof, one can do nothing.

 

[pnewton]

I agree; even though I am not Catholic (well, former Catholic), I still find the comments here to be disturbing so far. “There is nothing to see”? There is something there to see, and it is sad that now it is within the Vatican itself. As a former Catholic I feel sad for the state of the Catholic Church now.

I am sure many *former *Catholics feel as you do. No one has said there is nothing to see. This is not however a reflection on the Vatican. If you see there was a fault or somthing that was done incorrectly, please enlighten us. What would *you *have done with this clear hindsight to prevent a dishonest and perverted lay person from participating in some ministry?

 

[unafraid]

Br. JR., when you cautioned against violating the Catholic teaching on the principles of human rights you stated people have, “the right to choose a state of life freely”, and that people have a right ,“to activity in accord with the upright norm of ones conscience”. Please clarify and expound on this position. Are you stating that the human rights of homosexual “pimps” and “johns” should be on treated a par with those of the victimnized prostitutes just because their lifstyles were freely chosen and fit in to their own personal sense of conscience? If so, you are painting with very broad brushstrokes. Please specify your meaning regarding these two quotes. Thank you.

 

[Darryl1958]

Tell me… if this had happened to any other organisation, say a Gay Rights group… would people here have been so willing to say that “there’s nothing to see”?

That the allegations are just that, allegations, and the evidence from a wire-tap has yet to be tested in court, so must be disregarded?

I think there is a double standard here. I think the Church ignores that at its peril.

For a Gay Rights group, one could only imagine that chastity would be the scandal.

 

[Fitz]

They were not priests and no children were involved. This is NOT some sort of stain on the Church, IMHO.

I was thinking the same thing, although it is too close to the Pope and will sadly be another stain on our church. However, to the Lutheran who spoke up-don’t throw stones because this is a human stain that reaches far beyond the Catholic church. There are far more sex scandals amongst our school teachers for example.

Will the problem every end-sex scandals? No, humans have been engaged in sex scandals since biblical times and it will continue. It is the human struggle.

 

[Fitz]

i would tend to agree. and yes, the Church should be checking in on the private lives of those who serve within it. that is part of her job, to shepherd, guide, correct, and discipline the laity.

I am not sure about wire tapping into private lives, however the church was condemned when it did not weed out those priests that were offending with children as victims.

 

[ProVobis]

aolnews.com/world/article/vatican-hit-by-gay-sex-scandal/19383948?sms_ss=email

(March 4) – The Vatican is at the center of a gay sex scandal involving a young chorister who allegedly procured men, including at least one seminarian, for a lay member of one of Pope Benedict’s inner circles.

Angelo Balducci, a civil engineer and honorary Vatican usher, was quoted in police wiretaps allegedly negotiating with Thomas Chinedu Ehiem, a 29-year-old Vatican choir member, about the kind of men he wanted brought to him. Some of the wiretap transcripts were published Wednesday in the Italian daily La Repubblica.

Balducci has been a member since 1995 of “Gentlemen of His Holiness,” an exclusive fraternity of ushers within the papal household who serve during state and special occasions. Members of the group bore Pope John Paul II’s coffin in 2005.

This latest Vatican embarrassment, coming not long after Irish priests were summoned to Rome to discuss decades of clerical sexual abuse in Ireland, surfaced inadvertently as a result of a probe into corruption involving public works contracts.

Balducci, who sits on the board of Italy’s public works council and is a construction consultant to the Vatican, was one of four people arrested in February in connection with the corruption probe. He has not yet been charged in that case, which remains open.

On Wednesday, La Repubblica published excerpts from the wiretaps and other police documents from the probe, which indicated Balducci was in regular contact with Ehiem, a member of the Vatican’s Giulia Choir. Police identified him as part “of an organized network … to abet male prostitution.”

Among the men allegedly procured for Balducci, according to the transcripts, were “two black Cuban boys,” a former male model from Naples and a rugby player from Rome.

Ehiem told Panorama magazine in an interview set to run Friday that he had been introduced to Balducci 10 years ago. The Guardian quoted Ehiem as saying: “He asked me if I could procure other men for him. He told me he was married and that I had to do it in great secrecy.”

Ehiem was fired Wednesday from his job in the choir, according to news reports.

Some of the more sensational excerpts from Italian police transcripts obtained by the Guardian quote conversations recorded in January between Balducci and Ehiem about a young seminarian. Balducci inquires about the seminarian and Ehiem says he is “probably at Mass or something.”

When it turns out that seminarian is not available, Ehiem calls another time recommending one of the student priest’s colleagues or friends. Ehiem says the substitute is “better, taller, a bit taller than you.”

Still later, Ehiem is quoted in the transcript asking: “Can I send [him] around right away?” and asks where Balducci is. Ehiem is told that he is “up at the seminary … where the cardinal lives.” Ehiem then says the man “could get there within half an hour … the time it takes to catch a taxi and get there.”

Balducci’s lawyer, Franco Coppi, told reporters Thursday night that he had no comment for the moment. “We have more serious questions to tackle,” Coppi said. “Second, if these claims are correct, they regard his private life. It is disgraceful that these transcripts, which have nothing to do with the case, should have been spread about.”

The wiretaps stemmed from a probe into public works contracts, including a venue in Sardinia that was planned for last year’s G8 summit before it was moved to Abruzzo.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

For a Gay Rights group, one could only imagine that chastity would be the scandal.

The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage does appear to indicate that they believe Gays should be discouraged from being chaste and monogamous. Because if they were shown to be obviously chaste - or at least as much so as mixed-sex couples, and rather more than the priesthood - that would dispel misconceptions like yours.

Actually, I don’t think they have to worry. A significant number of Gay men are given to debauchery, and marriage availability is irrelevant to them. Lesbians rather less so, but there will always be public scandal.

It seems odd however that so many who the Church thinks are sexually incontinent want to form lasting legal partnerships, with legal and financial penalties should they split. There’s a contradiction there.

But I digress.

If between 1 in 20 and 1 in 60 managers in ANY other organisation had been shown to be sexual predators, and the senior management had reacted by covering that up and shuffling them around so they could continue their activities without any bad PR to the organisation… I think most Catholics would see that organisation as “intrinsically disordered”. I think they’d not necessarily be correct though. Not unless a culture of denial continued to exist after many - but perhaps not most - such scandals had been made public. Not unless those involved faced no penalty.

It’s because I have faith in the Church that I want to see Catholics stop their denial. If I thought it was “objectively disordered”, I’d just shun it as irredeemable.

My faith has been shaken though by some of the comments.

 

[unafraid]

Zoe Brain, you state that, “Because if they were shown to be obviously chaste–or at least as much as mixed-sex couples, AND RATHER MORE THAN THE PRIESTHOOD–that would dispel misconceptions like yours”. That is a deliberate and slanderous mistatement of fact aimed at the clergy. The overwhelming majority of priests doing God’s work throughout this world are devout and extremely chaste individuals. To suggest otherwise belies a clear anti-clerical bias. To promote untruth is to promulgate deception, and that act always speaks to motivation. Why slander the priesthood when this topic regards a homosexual “pimp” procurring for a homosexual “john”…period?

 

[Jersey_Jeepster]

If the allegations prove truthful, then choirister Thomas Chinedu Ehiem and Gentleman of His Holiness, Angelo Balducci, are duplicitous men who had been able to hide their vile and scurrilous natures from those who trusted them. But to try and impune the Vatican, the Pope and the Church in any way in this case is utter rubbish. These two miscreants sinned of their own volition, influenced by their own inner demons. Yesterday, I read an article regarding renowned exorcist, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, who claims that Satanic forces are actively attacking the Vatican from within. I believe him. We must remember that parasites enter a host and dwell within it, but they can never be considered as part of the host organism they are set to destroy. Evil people who happen to be associated somehow with the Vatican must be judged seperately from the Church, based upon the particular sins they have committed of their own free will. It has been foretold that the Church would be attacked by the forces of darkness, let us not misplace blame in this instance. The truly “guilty one” wins a victory if we do.

I am very interested to read the article about Father Gabriele Amorth and his theory on how the Vatican is under attack by satanic forces. Can you cite the article here or provide a link, if it’s online?

Thank you.

 

[Darryl1958]

The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage does appear to indicate that they believe Gays should be discouraged from being chaste and monogamous.

 

[mjs1987]

This is really bad. It kind of undermines the church’s attempts to curb homosexuality. The liberals and atheists will have a field day with this.

 

[unafraid]

Jersey Jeepster, the exorcist article is on page two of Catholic Answers, just scroll down.

 

[kimmielittle]

I agree; even though I am not Catholic (well, former Catholic), I still find the comments here to be disturbing so far. “There is nothing to see”? There is something there to see, and it is sad that now it is within the Vatican itself. As a former Catholic I feel sad for the state of the Catholic Church now.

Hiyas

What saddens me…is your statement.

Why so?
Sex sandals aren’t limited to the Catholic Church as you would want us to believe. Your own denomination has been racked…guardian.co.uk/world/2005/feb/19/religion.uk

Along with our Lutheran …icenews.is/index.php/2009/06/28/sex-scandals-shake-church-of-sweden/ …Baptist snapnetwork.org/news/baptist/baptists_confront_scandal.htm …Jewish religion.lohudblogs.com/2009/12/22/influential-ultra-orthodox-rabbi-from-monsey-caught-in-sex-scandal/ Friends etc et al

What is disturbing, to me, is a rush to judgment.

As always just my thoughts

 

[gamewell45]

Obviously a major embarassment to the church; just goes to show you have to be careful what you preach; what comes around, goes around.

 

[grace_singh]

Hiyas

And you would welcome someone checking on your private life…as a "Christian’… you too, are part of the Christian laity?

How do we do it…bed checks?

It hasn’t been established whether allegations are substantiated yet. We don’t even know if true.

well obviously if i kept something wholly to myself, which no one knew about, there would be nothing suspect and nothing to investigate.

but if it became known to my Christian family that i was doing something wrong / immoral / un-Biblical then yes, i would welcome my Pastor talking to me about it, correcting me, and counseling me. my husband also does this on a smaller, private scale at home. this is his job and right, as my Christian husband.

now, i’m not saying i’d enjoy the rebuking at the time. i might kick and scream a bit, wanting my own way, especially if i’m trying to justify what i’m doing. but intervention would still be the right thing to do. fellow Christians have the right and responsibility to point these things out to me, and urge me to repent and do differently.

that is what the church is supposed to do. that is what pastors, priests, and fellow laymen are supposed to do within the church. it may be seen as “nosy” or “intrusive” by the modern world, but in Christ it is expected and (name removed by moderator)ortant for the spiritual health of the community.