Vatican hit by gay sex scandal

[Other_Eric]

As a same sex attracted Catholic Christian, I am angry and saddened at your attitude, Eric. You obviously do not know the issues nor the grace of God towards those of us from any and all backgrounds–nor the teaching of the Church on homosexuality.

We are no more and no less prone to sin, whether sexual or otherwise, than others. We are not child molestors nor infiltrators into the Church. Some of us are, yes, and so are some heterosexuals–in fact, many heterosexuals are involved in everything from prostitution to child abuse. Sin is sin. My story was featured, by God’s grace, on this website in THIS ROCK magazine and is still posted. Feel free to read it. I am a celibate Catholic Christian and have been for a number of years now. How many who are permanently single and straight can say that? We have as much right to work in the Church, in any aspect God allows, as any others. I am sorry to see such malicious prejudice coming from such a story as this one. Sorry, yes, surprised, unfortunately not.

Oh, the link to my story: www.catholic.com/thisrock/0809dr– I think that is correct! In any case it is in the DAMASCUS ROAD section of the September 2008 THIS ROCK magazine, printed and distributed by Catholic Answers, who also produce this site. God bless.

Let me correct that link, it is catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0809dr.asp. Again I speak with God’s love but would ask that we do not turn this into a discussion on the evils of same sex attracted people. That is both unkind and inaccurate. Take care.

Prudence neither denies grace nor pragmatism. This is not about discussing the supposed “evils” of those who experience same-sex attraction. This is about taking into account the hard data we possess on those who experience same-sex attractions and the significantly higher potential such individuals exhibit for sexual misconduct as well as other grave moral lapses, as illustrated by the story we are discussing in this thread.

  The Church is not meant to be a forum where people merely come together to sing *Kumbayah* and just feel better about themselves. Rather, the Church has a specific mission to be accomplished. Anything (or anyone) that interferes or has the significant potential to interfere with that mission or its objectives ought to be cast aside.

  I read the article that you wrote and can commend your entry back into the Church. Though I would take issue with some of the conclusions you have drawn, that is a subject best discussed at another time. For now, it is sufficient to encourage you in the pursuit of holiness and all that the virtue implies.

 

[kimmielittle]

Hiyas

Why should we limit the restriction just to those who are, as you say, “open and practicing?” Isn’t it precisely those who remain hidden that present the most danger to the Church and her institutions?

Yes, Heterosexual and Homosexual.

Rather than cast wide the doors of employment and respect to anyone who can mimic orthodoxy for five minutes, the Church and any ministries that operate using her name, ought screen members for grave psychological deviations, such as same-sex attractions. Commendably, the psychologists at NARTH have developed tests which, as I understand it, can weed such individuals out with a high degree of accuracy, generating only a few false positives. We must remember that the raison d’être of the Church’s teaching on Social Justice is the support of families, not individuals who, by reason of a diseased psychology, cannot do anything other than threaten the family.

Ah, a litmus test to be used against those who may sin - a valuable tool
It should be used for all - not just homosexuals.
But does it tell who will sin?

We must remember Judas betrayed…Thomas denied …Paul was Saul…Mary Magdeline was possessed…Mathew a Tax collector…Peter wavered… etc etc.

ALL presented a threat to family and Christianity.

If we intend to protect our family values - let’s protect the very basic of Christian tenants. The right to come before a judge when allegations arise. I certainly don’t know yet, that they have been found guilty.

And that is what I’m saying

As always, just my thoughts

 

[pnewton]

Duplicate thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=433591

 

[kimmielittle]

Hiyas

well obviously if i kept something wholly to myself, which no one knew about, there would be nothing suspect and nothing to investigate.

Ah, from the article…these allegations have just now been brought to life…via an undercover wire tap…evidently it was kept secret. You are presuming that the Vatican knew of these acts.

but if it became known to my Christian family that i was doing something wrong / immoral / un-Biblical

Again you are presuming / suggesting that the Vatican knew of these acts.

that is what the church is supposed to do. that is what pastors, priests, and fellow laymen are supposed to do within the church. it may be seen as “nosy” or “intrusive” by the modern world, but in Christ it is expected and (name removed by moderator)ortant for the spiritual health of the community.

IF the allegations hold true - Then, I await the Churches response.

As always, just my thoughts

 

[DawnInTexas]

God is still in control.
Always. (Remember that!)

The Church (Body of Christ) is now following Christ (The Head) through the Passion. Mother Angelica has stated more than once on her show “Mother Angelica Live.”
MP3 Archives-Mother Angelica Live 1991-2002

Pray!— the Rosary each day.
Then, look around at the world through the eyes of your soul-through your Faith.

God Bless.
+Peace In Christ.
Love, Dawn

 

[pnewton]

IF the allegations hold true - Then, I await the Churches response.

They already did respond. They have been dismissed.

One of Pope Benedict XVI’s elite ushers — already in jail over a corruption probe — has been dismissed for an alleged gay-prostitution ring,

content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/03/papal-aide-vatican-singer-fired-over-alleged-gay-prostitute-ring-/1

 

[Other_Eric]

Hiyas

Yes, Heterosexual and Homosexual.

Ah, a litmus test to be used against those who may sin - a valuable tool
It should be used for all - not just homosexuals.
But does it tell who will sin?

We must remember Judas betrayed…Thomas denied …Paul was Saul…Mary Magdeline was possessed…Mathew a Tax collector…Peter wavered… etc etc.

ALL presented a threat to family and Christianity.

If we intend to protect our family values - let’s protect the very basic of Christian tenants. The right to come before a judge when allegations arise. I certainly don’t know yet, that they have been found guilty.

And that is what I’m saying

As always, just my thoughts

I think it is significant to mention here that the charges that these men have been accused of are not, in and of themselves, related to same-sex attraction, but corruption. It is significant that these men’s own lawyer does not in any way deny the men’s involvement in same-sex sexual contact but instead complains about this information being made public. (1) It seems that there is no question concerning the same-sex attractions that these men experience.

Additionally, it is easy to misconceive the prudent discernment of those applicants who present for positions within the Church and her charities as a witch-hunt intended to capture all who have any stain of sin or attraction to it on their souls. As I’m sure you will agree this is unreasonable.

Nevertheless, we do not ignore the heightened risks certain types of individuals present for certain types of jobs. We are not discussing mere possibility, but probability. It would be a gross lapse in judgment to give an alcoholic a job as a bar tender or a child molester a job at a daycare on nothing more than the theory that, since all have sinned, one cannot judge the potential such characters have for offending in future against any other candidate. The discernment of those individuals with same-sex attractions who request positions within either the Church or her charities should follow the same rule.
(1) Messia, Hada et al. “Lawyer: Leak of sex claims against Italian official is 'shameful'.” CNN World. Cable News Network; Turner Broadcasting System, Inc.; March 6, 2010. Available online at: [cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.vatican.government.scandal/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn](http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.vatican.government.scandal/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn)

 

[PacoG]

Yesterday, I read an article regarding renowned exorcist, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, who claims that Satanic forces are actively attacking the Vatican from within. I believe him. We must remember that parasites enter a host and dwell within it, but they can never be considered as part of the host organism they are set to destroy. Evil people who happen to be associated somehow with the Vatican must be judged seperately from the Church, based upon the particular sins they have committed of their own free will. It has been foretold that the Church would be attacked by the forces of darkness, let us not misplace blame in this instance. The truly “guilty one” wins a victory if we do.

We make a big thing of the attacks on the Church because of it is happening in our time. The Church has always been under attack by the forces of darkness. In the centuries before the Council of Trent, corruption and debauchery infested the ranks of the clergy as far up as the curia and the papacy. Strong holy men like Pope St. Pius V and the other popes of the Council of Trent kept the boat steady during those trying times. What followed the darkness was a springtime that was the greatest evangelization of the New World. Then in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the Church was under attack from the forces of anti-clericalism. Several commentators saw the Napoleanic Wars as the end of the Church. Then stepped great holy popes like Bl. Pius IX and Leo XIII. And another golden era.

We are in another dark time when the enemies of the Church are on the march. We have been blessed with great prophetic popes like Ven. Pius XII and Bl. John XXIII (the real John XXIII not the imagined one that NCR and CTA dream of) and great spiritual warrior popes like Ven. John Paul the Great and Benedict XVI.

This too shall pass. The Church will survive and flourish. We have our Lord’s word on that.

 

[Biggie]

Obviously a major embarassment to the church; just goes to show you have to be careful what you preach; what comes around, goes around.

No idea what you mean here.

 

[Darryl1958]

No idea what you mean here.

I would take it to mean that us all being sinners and all, he just does not the gospel message getting out there. After all, ignorance of the law is the best excuse, isn’t it?

 

[kimmielittle]

They already did respond. They have been dismissed.

content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/03/papal-aide-vatican-singer-fired-over-alleged-gay-prostitute-ring-/1

Hiyas

Thanks for the link

I had just found this one news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8552804.stm as well.

I think the Vatican responded well.

 

[Biggie]

I have never heard the Church profess that by virtue of one’s Catholicism, Mass attendance, vocation or proximity to the Holy Father, one is relieved of human nature, immune to concupiscence or incapable of sin. I have frequently heard it observed that the greater one strives toward Christ, the greater the temptations.

Should we pretend that it is a “shock” that such things occur in the world? Or should we not rather expect that they do and will and take away from that the need for vigilance and prayer? The reflection, here, is on the failed human being, not on the institution Christ himself established.

 

[Biggie]

I would take it to mean that us all being sinners and all, he just does not the gospel message getting out there. After all, ignorance of the law is the best excuse, isn’t it?

It’s the “careful what you preach” part that concerns me. Should preaching be modified by the sinfulness of choir member, no less?

 

[kimmielittle]

I think it is significant to mention here that the charges that these men have been accused of are not, in and of themselves, related to same-sex attraction, but corruption. It is significant that these men’s own lawyer does not in any way deny the men’s involvement in same-sex sexual contact but instead complains about this information being made public. (1) It seems that there is no question concerning the same-sex attractions that these men experience.

Yeppers!!! I saw the lawyers response

Additionally, it is easy to misconceive the prudent discernment of those applicants who present for positions within the Church and her charities as a witch-hunt intended to capture all who have any stain of sin or attraction to it on their souls. As I’m sure you will agree this is unreasonable.

Nevertheless, we do not ignore the heightened risks certain types of individuals present for certain types of jobs. We are not discussing mere possibility, but probability. It would be a gross lapse in judgment to give an alcoholic a job as a bar tender or a child molester a job at a daycare on nothing more than the theory that, since all have sinned, one cannot judge the potential such characters have for offending in future against any other candidate. The discernment of those individuals with same-sex attractions who request positions within either the Church or her charities should follow the same rule. I think all would agree…I surely don’t disagree - except as a witch-hunt.

(1) Messia, Hada et al. “Lawyer: Leak of sex claims against Italian official is ‘shameful’.” CNN World

. Cable News Network; Turner Broadcasting System, Inc.; March 6, 2010. Available online at: cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.vatican.government.scandal/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

Hiyas

Thanks for the link

I absolutely agree.

 

[mjs1987]

Whether or not you want to think this a small deal, it is a big deal. It WILL lead people astray and give ammunition to those that do not believe and are hostile to the faith. We may know that they are not priests and simple ushers but most people arent going to get that from the news. Neither can we sit back and pretend that the news and enemies will not use this for all that they can get out of it. The simple fact that this happened is embarrassing and these men did grave harm to the salvation of souls. Could the church have done a better job of vetting these people? I do not know the answer but in these times and with the hostility the church really has no choice since every scandal like this does terrible harm to the church and its reputation. A scandal like this is ammunition to say the church is full of hypocrites on the homosexuality issue. This is really bad and to diminish it is very bad.

 

[ProVobis]

Duplicate thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=433591

Sorry, I missed it. I spent too much time on trying to verify the story. I was very disappointed as I thought with the new stricter Pope, we’d be rid of all these scandals going forward.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Sorry, I missed it. I spent too much time on trying to verify the story. I was very disappointed as I thought with the new stricter Pope, we’d be rid of all these scandals going forward.

Au contraire, Pierre, as they say, while it is certainly a sad case, I’d actually almost expect more difficulties and scandals because:

1. The Devil wants the ‘best’, and spends more effort going after the ones whose ‘fall’ is ‘bigger’. Nobody is too surprised when a non-practicing indifferent Catholic slips into great sin, but they are shocked–shocked! when a ‘devout’ Catholic falls. Even though the ‘devout’ person might have fought long and hard before falling while Mr. Indifferent actually welcomed the sin, “Devout” is going to be considered as a greater sinner. More ‘credit’ to Satan.
2. Since we have been experiencing a lot of difficulty with people rejecting their Christian faith, and we’re now seeing a ‘resurgence of faith lately,again, the Devil is going to want to try to stop anyone from considering going ‘back’–and the best way is to keep playing the "look how evil these people are and they claim to be so good’ card. High profile big names are a feather in the Devil’s cap.
3. If Jesus had one of twelve a real "top 10’ sinner, and the remaining 11 with their moments of doubt, hesitation, and personal failures. . .why would we expect to have nothing but ‘perfect’ leaders?

 

[ProVobis]

Au contraire, Pierre, as they say, while it is certainly a sad case, I’d actually almost expect more difficulties and scandals because:

1. The Devil wants the ‘best’, and spends more effort going after the ones whose ‘fall’ is ‘bigger’. Nobody is too surprised when a non-practicing indifferent Catholic slips into great sin, but they are shocked–shocked! when a ‘devout’ Catholic falls. Even though the ‘devout’ person might have fought long and hard before falling while Mr. Indifferent actually welcomed the sin, “Devout” is going to be considered as a greater sinner. More ‘credit’ to Satan.
2. Since we have been experiencing a lot of difficulty with people rejecting their Christian faith, and we’re now seeing a ‘resurgence of faith lately,again, the Devil is going to want to try to stop anyone from considering going ‘back’–and the best way is to keep playing the "look how evil these people are and they claim to be so good’ card. High profile big names are a feather in the Devil’s cap.
3. If Jesus had one of twelve a real "top 10’ sinner, and the remaining 11 with their moments of doubt, hesitation, and personal failures. . .why would we expect to have nothing but ‘perfect’ leaders?

Yes, but you could say the same for all those TV Evangelists who were eventually scandalized, and not only because they couldn’t control their sexual urges. One loses a lot of moral leadership if there’s too much scandal within high ranks. Not to mention bad PR.

Now comes the damage control.

 

[pnewton]

Sorry, I missed it. I spent too much time on trying to verify the story. I was very disappointed as I thought with the new stricter Pope, we’d be rid of all these scandals going forward.

We will never be rid of them. The numbers of those involved in some ministry, the number of priests, the number of laity, are all too great to ever expect that there will be no rotten apples. There have always been, and always will be this side of heaven, evil and sinful people among God’s flock. This is not a reflection on the Church, anymore than evil people who work at Microsoft is a reflection on on Windows Vista.

Okay, bad example. Let me say that given any very large sampling of people, there will be some very bad sinners among them.

 

[Milliardo]

I am sure many *former *Catholics feel as you do.

I do not know what you mean by this, but I am sincere in what I said. I still have strong sympathies towards the Catholic Church, that is why I find this affair rather sad. I am sure even Catholics would feel the same way.

This is not however a reflection on the Vatican.

No matter how much this has been said already, whenever things like this happens, it would always reflect back on the Church. Anything done, whether good or bad, would always reflect back on any person or institution. This might be unjust and unfair at times, but that is how it goes.

What would *you *have done with this clear hindsight to prevent a dishonest and perverted lay person from participating in some ministry?

Honestly, I wouldn’t know, since I have not been faced by such an issue.

What saddens me…is your statement. Why so?

Why not would be the better question. Who wouldn’t be sad in such a situation? As I’ve stated, even as a former Catholic I still have strong affections for the Catholic Church. But beyond that, any Christian should feel sad in such an event. It is not cause for rejoicing, or even a triumphalistic “my Church is better than your Church” attitude; that is not my intention. The state of affairs in the Catholic Church right now is sad, plain and simple. Nothing in what I said should hint of “Orthodoxy is better” etc. As I have stated, that should not be one’s attitude.