Vatican hit by gay sex scandal

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I also tend to distrust any secular news source for information about Vatican goings-on.

 

[KC91]

I don’t know why this should be such big news or so controversial - in all governments and organizations there are scandals.

 

[seek]

.

But it’s not 1 in 200: it’s closer to 1 in 20.

I never quite knew it was 1 out of 20. Where did you get those numbers?

 

[dekutrash]

-delete-

 

[pnewton]

.

But it’s not 1 in 200: it’s closer to 1 in 20.

I never quite knew it was 1 out of 20. Where did you get those numbers?

57% of all statistics are made up.

 

[Ecoclimber]

This does not require that one bury their head in the sand. That’s not what Francis did. He simply avoided the conflicts, because he did not accuse anyone of doing anything wrong. He left that to people in authority.

I guess I am missing the point here. I understand your thoughts in the broader context but I still don’t see how this protects innocent children from clerical abuse. The Church is to protect the innocent not abuse them. If the church fails in its responsibility to protect the innocent, is it not then our responsibility to bring this matter to those that can expose this matter instead of being threatened with excommunication to keep silent?

The cloak of silence still exists within the Church and undermines its moral authority especially when secular society seems to exhibit a higher moral code when the church refuses to acknowledge, covers up or stonewalls any investigation. This cloak of secrecy allows the perpetrators to move from one ecclesiastic jurisdiction to another under the approval and direction of those in authority. By undermining the moral authority and integrity of the church, secular society accuses it of a double standard or hypocrisy when the Magisterium of the church speaks out against abortion and remains silent on sexual exploitation of children. Matt: 18:6 " But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Unfortunately, the Church still obfuscates, stonewalls and uses legal means to continue the abuse of it’s victims as reported by BishopAccountability.org bishop-accountability.org/.

From denying prosecutors the personnel files of perpetrators, to claiming constitutional protection from reasonable claims of liability in court, to fighting in statehouses against changes in statutes of limitation for the prosecution of perpetrators and the accountability of all institutions in society, to returning credibly accused sex offenders to ministry, the bishops have waged war against truth, healing, and justice like never before.
snapnetwork.org/

 

[pnewton]

The cloak of silence still exists within the Church

I keep hearing phrases like “cloak of silence” yet here we are, discussing yet another news story. I know that there was a real problem with at one time with this, but that idea is a tough sell when there is so much media coverage, even on non-events. I don’t think much goes under the radar anymore.

 

[JReducation]

I guess I am missing the point here. I understand your thoughts in the broader context but I still don’t see how this protects innocent children from clerical abuse. The Church is to protect the innocent not abuse them. If the church fails in its responsibility to protect the innocent, is it not then our responsibility to bring this matter to those that can expose this matter instead of being threatened with excommunication to keep silent?

The cloak of silence still exists within the Church and undermines its moral authority especially when secular society seems to exhibit a higher moral code when the church refuses to acknowledge, covers up or stonewalls any investigation. This cloak of secrecy allows the perpetrators to move from one ecclesiastic jurisdiction to another under the approval and direction of those in authority. By undermining the moral authority and integrity of the church, secular society accuses it of a double standard or hypocrisy when the Magisterium of the church speaks out against abortion and remains silent on sexual exploitation of children. Matt: 18:6 " But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Unfortunately, the Church still obfuscates, stonewalls and uses legal means to continue the abuse of it’s victims as reported by BishopAccountability.org bishop-accountability.org/.

From denying prosecutors the personnel files of perpetrators, to claiming constitutional protection from reasonable claims of liability in court, to fighting in statehouses against changes in statutes of limitation for the prosecution of perpetrators and the accountability of all institutions in society, to returning credibly accused sex offenders to ministry, the bishops have waged war against truth, healing, and justice like never before.
snapnetwork.org/

Let’s take this in small steps:

1. We must remember that the media spins their stories so they can sell. Much of what the media has said about this issue has been as spun as cotton candy. The media is not a credible source.
2. There is no law in the Church that says that one can be excommunicated for reporting an abuse to a religious superior, a bishop or the police. Who ever said this lied, plain and simple.
3. A person who truly cares about the welfare of children will raise the moral flag for all children, unborn and born. That person is worthy of attention and their only agenda is the protection of innocent children at any stage of development.
4. The protection of our children is a duty of every human being. It is unfair to children to make it the duty of the Catholic Church. Every person and every social system has this moral duty.
5. The bishops and major superiors committed administrative blunders in handling this situation and these reports. However, one must also remember that many of them committed the blunders under the guidance of experts who said that the child molestor could be rehabilitated. The advisors also committed blunders. The APA must also be held accountable for its guidance. It is not unbiased reported when the writers leave out such pertinent information making our bishops look as if they deliberately intended to commit a crime.

6… There were cases where documents were withheld for very valid reasons: a) the accused was deceased. Bringing the case out into the public light would not serve a purpose; but would hurt the families of the deceased, who were not guilty of any misdoing. b) many documents were the property of the Vatican. The Vatican is a a sovereign nation. The State does not have the authority to violate national sovereignty. The same rule applies to embassies. c) many of these cases could not be taken to trial, because the statute of limitations had elapsed. Therefore, there was a legitimate question as to the benefit of making all this information public.

There may have been documents that were withheld, but the media has not clearly reported all of the reasons.

1. We Catholics also have rights under civil law. We have the right to see our Church and our leaders treated with respect and with fairness in court and in the public sector. That right has been violated. Had these cases been Muslim, the legal system and the media would have treaded much more gingerly. We can take the example of the Muslims who stand by their faith and demand that it be presented with respect and that their leaders be treated fairly by civil authorities. We Catholics must cease standing by the media and start to stand by our people and demand that we not be misrepresented and that our leaders not be treated unfairlly and disrespectfully.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Ecoclimber]

1. We Catholics also have rights under civil law. We have the right to see our Church and our leaders treated with respect and with fairness in court and in the public sector. That right has been violated. Had these cases been Muslim, the legal system and the media would have treaded much more gingerly. We can take the example of the Muslims who stand by their faith and demand that it be presented with respect and that their leaders be treated fairly by civil authorities. We Catholics must cease standing by the media and start to stand by our people and demand that we not be misrepresented and that our leaders not be treated unfairlly and disrespectfully.

We can not look at other institution whether religious or civic, as these institutions may not raise the specter of moral authority as the Catholic Church and is a redirection from the main problem. The Church must first cast out the beam out of its own eye before speaking of the splinter in someone else’s eye. Regardless, any crime committed within a particular country must be reported to civil authorities within the appropriate jurisdiction of that country. Parishes are not embassies. The logic is non sequitur.

The Murphy report concluded that during those years, rather than being concerned about the victims, Catholic leaders were more interested in “the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church and the preservation of its assets.”

Cardinal Sean Brady of Ireland in his opening remarks to Pope Benedict XVI said “teach us, to help us be better shepherds of the people, to lead us on the way of repentance and so, therefore, there will be suggestions about celebrations of lament and repentance involving, first of all, us bishops and priests,”

Archbishop Martin of Ireland stated “it would be the beginning of a whole process aimed at a very significant reorganization of the church in Ireland.“The climate in the church,” which allowed abusers to go unpunished, will only change once there is a renewal, a willingness to publicly accept responsibility for one’s actions and greater involvement by laypeople in all areas of church life.” Archbishop Martin said it was obvious during the meeting that the pope was deeply ashamed by the report’s depiction of clerical sexual abuse of children and the lack of action on the part of church leaders.

In a Vatican statement earlier this year, “The Holy See takes very seriously the central issues raised by the Report, including questions concerning the governance of local Church leaders with ultimate responsibility for the pastoral care of children. He wishes once more to express his profound regret at the actions of some members of the clergy who have betrayed their solemn promises to God, as well as the trust placed in them by the victims and their families, and by society at large. The Holy Father shares the outrage, betrayal and shame felt by so many of the faithful in Ireland, and he is united with them in prayer at this difficult time in the life of the Church.”

It’s unfortunate that this has been allowed to continue but even in the OT, the levitical priesthood had its fair share of sinners.

 

[JReducation]

We can not look at other institution whether religious or civic, as these institutions may not raise the specter of moral authority as the Catholic Church and is a redirection from the main problem. The Church must first cast out the beam out of its own eye before speaking of the splinter in someone else’s eye. Regardless, any crime committed within a particular country must be reported to civil authorities within the appropriate jurisdiction of that country. Parishes are not embassies. The logic is non sequitur.

The Murphy report concluded that during those years, rather than being concerned about the victims, Catholic leaders were more interested in “the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the church and the preservation of its assets.”

Cardinal Sean Brady of Ireland in his opening remarks to Pope Benedict XVI said “teach us, to help us be better shepherds of the people, to lead us on the way of repentance and so, therefore, there will be suggestions about celebrations of lament and repentance involving, first of all, us bishops and priests,”

Archbishop Martin of Ireland stated “it would be the beginning of a whole process aimed at a very significant reorganization of the church in Ireland.“The climate in the church,” which allowed abusers to go unpunished, will only change once there is a renewal, a willingness to publicly accept responsibility for one’s actions and greater involvement by laypeople in all areas of church life.” Archbishop Martin said it was obvious during the meeting that the pope was deeply ashamed by the report’s depiction of clerical sexual abuse of children and the lack of action on the part of church leaders.

In a Vatican statement earlier this year, “The Holy See takes very seriously the central issues raised by the Report, including questions concerning the governance of local Church leaders with ultimate responsibility for the pastoral care of children. He wishes once more to express his profound regret at the actions of some members of the clergy who have betrayed their solemn promises to God, as well as the trust placed in them by the victims and their families, and by society at large. The Holy Father shares the outrage, betrayal and shame felt by so many of the faithful in Ireland, and he is united with them in prayer at this difficult time in the life of the Church.”

It’s unfortunate that this has been allowed to continue but even in the OT, the levitical priesthood had its fair share of sinners.

I never said that any of these behaviors were acceptable and I agree with the Holy Father and with those bishops who want to repair the damage done. My contention is that Catholics have been swayed by the media against their Church. But the media has failed to report all of the details. As human citizens, we have a right to demand that the media tell the whole story. Catholics have the right to demand that our leaders not be portrayed unfairly and that they be treated justly in the press and in court. Fairness is telling the whole truth. I always think about Jews and Muslims in cases like this. They do not tolerate from the media what Catholics do and the media treats them with great respect. We need to tell the media, “Tell us the whole truth and keep your comments to yourself. Just give us the facts, not your opinions.” When we have the facts, we can then make plans to fix the problem. This is why the reports generated by the Vatican work. These reports are void of opinions. They are simply facts. “This happened and this did not happen.” The Holy See decides what was right and wrong.

I am also very concerned about Catholics who are quick to put distance between themselves and the Church, because of the scandals. The Church continues to be holy and it continues to be our means of salvation. To put distance between us and her is to our detriment. We must never forget that the sin of man does not take away from the grace of Christ that comes through the Eucharist, the other sacraments and the fullness of truth, which can only be found in the Catholic Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Ecoclimber]

Guyonthestreet:

… following the fact he confirmed he was present at a meeting where two youths abused by the paedophile priest Brendan Smyth were sworn to silence.

A campaigner for victims of clerical child abuse in Ireland, Colm O’Gorman, said Cardinal Brady should resign following the admission that he had represented the church at the meetings where children were forced to take a vow of silence about their abuse.

Mr O’Gorman said: "He believed that this out of control paedophile [Smyth] had abused children and he did nothing to report this crime to the police either then, or it would appear, at any point over the next 20 years during which Smyth continued to rape and abuse in parishes across the world with near impunity.

“Instead he took part in a cover-up of Smyth’s crimes and swore his child victims to secrecy,” he said.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8567144.stm

The Cardinal states he did nothing wrong and there was no guidelines for him to follow.

How in the name of all that is good and holy can a man of the Church, even in the absence of guidelines, NOT report such abuse to the authorities and demand the full force of the law be reigned down on the abuser.

Wouldn’t human nature, common sense, and human empathy with the victims even in the absence of guidelines, tell you you must report this to the police and have the guy arrested. Wouldn’t these human traits tell you swearing victims to silence couldnt be the right thing to do!!!

Smyth went on to abuse children for more than 2 decades more before being arrested and conviced of child abuse.

This is what I mean by a Cloak of Silence

 

[JReducation]

This is what I mean by a Cloak of Silence

Yes, but you said that the “cloak of silence” continues. Pnewton posed a very good point. It does not continue, because if it did, we would not be having this discussion.

No one is denying that this was a horrible choice made by this bishop. The point is that this is not being tolerated by the Church. Actually, it was never tolerated. The problem was that no one at the Vatican knew that this was happening. Now that the Vatican knows this happend, there is no tolerance for it. Neither the Holy Father, not any of us who are active in ministry tolerate this kind of behavior. It’s absolutely wrong. We thank God that it has been discovered.

Will someone in the future ever try to cover up some sin? Probably, because human beings are not perfect. Will it be tolerated if it is discovered? Absolutely not. Just as it is not being tolerated today.

What we’re looking at is two things.

1. There was wrong doing and cover-up, also blunders that were not intended to be cover ups, but turned out to do the same thing as a cover-up. This whole package is morally and legally unacceptable.
2. On the positive side, there is a strong condemnation of this behavior by the rest of us, clergy, religious and laity, especially the Holy See.

Therefore, this is not on-going. The day of cover-ups are swiftly coming to an end as they are discovered. Thank God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

This is what I mean by a Cloak of Silence

Yes, but you said that the “cloak of silence” continues.

From the link above:

Cardinal Sean Brady was at meetings in the** 1970s** where two abused teenagers signed vows of silence over their complaints against Fr Brendan Smyth.

and

The Pope’s former diocese earlier said he once unwittingly approved housing for a priest accused of child abuse.
The episode dates back to** 1980** when he was archbishop of Munich and Freising, and known as Joseph Ratzinger.

This is what I was trying to convey to Ecoclimber. I am glad the link he gave shows this so clearly.

In what other area of anything does a newpaper report on incidents 30-40 years old and pretend it is news. I would claim that this sort of “journalism” is driven by anticatholicism, but it is really all about sensationlization, dishonesty and exaggeration for the sake of sales. This problem is particular rampant in the British press.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

From the link above:

and

This is what I was trying to convey to Ecoclimber. I am glad the link he gave shows this so clearly.

In what other area of anything does a newpaper report on incidents 30-40 years old and pretend it is news. I would claim that this sort of “journalism” is driven by anticatholicism, but it is really all about sensationlization, dishonesty and exaggeration for the sake of sales. This problem is particular rampant in the British press.

The press will cry ‘wolf’ once too often.

 

[JReducation]

I have two concerns, one within the Church and one outside the Church. Actually, the one within the Church has a part A and B.

Within the Church:

1. 
   *]Every child should feel safe in God’s house and among God’s people. Those who have abused children should be punished accordingly, but by the law, not by public opinion. The attempts to cover this up were at minimal foolishness and at maximum grave sins against justice. Those who deliberately attempted to cooperate with evil should also receive severe consequence. Those who foolishly believed that a promise to behave or a change of situation would make the problem go away should make some kind of amend to the wounded. I’m not sure what form that could take.
   
   *]As Catholics we must also stand by our Church. We can condemn the sin and the foolishness. We can work together to correct the weaknesses in the infrastructure. We can create systems that will protect all of God’s children, from conception to natural death, from every kind of abuse. This is not a situation where we should be simple observers. In every area of the Church, we can offer some assistance, some advice on how to protect human dignity and human life. Assistance is pro-active; throwing stones does not fix any problem or prevent future repetitions. Leaving the Church is leaving Truth, because someone sinned against truth. That does not help you. As Francis taught his brothers, we must put distance between us and sin, not between us and the Church.
   
   Outside the Church:
   
   I still feel very strongly that there is a weakness among Catholics and that we can and should take some lessons from our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters. Why does the media tread very gently around them, but takes advantage of every opportunity to embarrass Catholics, to make them feel guilty for being Catholics, to portray our leaders, clergy and religious as pedophiles, active homosexuals, incompetent idiots and never misses a mishap among Catholics? There are many good things and good people that make up Catholicism; but the media never touches on this. I have to share that I was shocked that Oprah, of all people, has been the only person on TV who has presented something positive about the Church when she had the Dominican Sisters on her show. She was the last person whom I would have expected this from.
   
   I believe that the reason that the media feels free to try to embarrass Catholics and make us all feel guilty for the sins of the few is because we tolerate it and sadly, many Catholics have joined the Media Church. Too many of us repeat everything that they write and say as if they always told the whole truth. We must stand by our faith inside the Church and in the community.
   
   Fraternally,
   
   Br. JR, OSF

 

[tweetymom]

If there wasn’t anything to report there wouldn’t be a story.

 

[JReducation]

If there wasn’t anything to report there wouldn’t be a story.

This is true. But Catholics must be careful consumers of news. Because the media has made the Catholic Church their target. That’s unfair. Look at what they’re trying to do to Pope Benedict. The man has already said that he knew nothing about what happened at Regensburgh (sp?). The media keeps insinuating that Ratzinger, then, knew something and hid it. Journalists are not exempt from morality. It is one thing to report the truth and it is another to ruin people’s reputation and do character assaults. That is not the moral role of journalistm.

What is very obvious in Western journalism is that it is very cautious when it comes to Jews and Muslims. When it reports a story that happens among Jews or Mulsims it makes it a point to be very specific and very clear about who did what. It also makes it a point to separate the subject of their report from the religion. I mean that they do not attack Judaism or Islam. They go after the terrorist report or the bombings in Israel, etc. But they do not make Islam and Judaism look ridiculous. They do this only to Catholics. That’s wrong. This should not be done to anyone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Holly3278]

First of all, I just want to let you all know that I have not had the time to read the entire thread but that I am choosing to respond to a few of the posts on the first page of this thread. If I have somehow gotten something wrong, please let me know either via private message or via this thread. I will try to keep an eye on this thread for the next day or so.

IF this is true----consider the fact that the enemy has been seeding the Church with such people for decades.

We are at war. They will use any means to win. And I am standing by Holy Mother Church.

I agree. But we must also remember that the Church is made of sinners and saints. Therefore, there will occasionally be scandals in the Church. It has been this way since the beginning I am sure and will likely be that way until our Lord returns to pronounce the ultimate judgment upon us all.

That said, while the people within the Church may make mistakes, the Church itself will never err when it comes to matters of faith and morals. As our Lord, Himself, has said:

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Emphasis in bold mine.

If the allegations prove truthful, then choirister Thomas Chinedu Ehiem and Gentleman of His Holiness, Angelo Balducci, are duplicitous men who had been able to hide their vile and scurrilous natures from those who trusted them. But to try and impune the Vatican, the Pope and the Church in any way in this case is utter rubbish. These two miscreants sinned of their own volition, influenced by their own inner demons. Yesterday, I read an article regarding renowned exorcist, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, who claims that Satanic forces are actively attacking the Vatican from within. I believe him. We must remember that parasites enter a host and dwell within it, but they can never be considered as part of the host organism they are set to destroy. Evil people who happen to be associated somehow with the Vatican must be judged seperately from the Church, based upon the particular sins they have committed of their own free will. It has been foretold that the Church would be attacked by the forces of darkness, let us not misplace blame in this instance. The truly “guilty one” wins a victory if we do.

When I first heard about Fr. Gabriele Amorth making this claim a few days ago, I didn’t want to believe him. Now, I think I do believe him to a certain extent. I do believe that it is likely that there are forces inside the Vatican working to destroy the Church. However, I also believe that they will ultimately fail and that the Church will ultimately prove victorious. Why do I believe this? I believe this because the Bible says that the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church.

(Matthew 16:18 DRB) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Don’t see what the fuss is all about.

The accused are human as are we all and prone to sin (even serious or scandalous sin). Doesn’t matter whether you are associated with the Vatican or work at the corner store, a story like that should cause each of us to take stock of our own propensity to sin. Of course, being associated with the Vatican makes it an international story and does some damage to the image of the Church but when you get right down to it all this story does is remind us that we are all imperfect: individually and as a community.

I agree. And besides that, the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church. While the Church’s image may have been damaged in the eyes of many, the fact remains that our Lord has made a promise to us and that promise is that the gates of Hell will never prevail against His Church.

Therefore, I choose to stand by the Church even in this hour of tribulation. I also choose to stand by our Pope and the entire Magisterium because I believe that ultimately God and His Church will win the day.

That said, I really do think that we ought to wait for what the Church itself is going to say about this. Nobody knows for sure the entire truth about this matter and frankly, I don’t trust the mainstream media to do anything but disparage and viciously attack the Church.

 

[Ecoclimber]

That said, I really do think that we ought to wait for what the Church itself is going to say about this. Nobody knows for sure the entire truth about this matter and frankly, I don’t trust the mainstream media to do anything but disparage and viciously attack the Church.

The media is only reporting the results of extensive investigations by governmental bodies in various countries throughout the world and from reports of abused victims, themselves. Unfortunately, the results of pervasive inaction on the part of the Church hierarchy is having a devastating effect on the Church causing a mass exodus out of the Church. This harmful situation jeopardizes the salvation of many souls. It is an impediment to spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world. It impinges the reputation of all faithful members of religious orders who work tirelessly throughout the world. The Church, you must remember, is just not the Pope and the ecclesiastical hierarchy but all members of the body of Christ. Yes, you can find the entire truth of the matter if you research and investigate the situation. Many research books have been written chronicling the extent of this abuse throughout the past decade. The question that belies this situation is whether you can trust the Church leadership and for many of the abused victims, the answer is no.

cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/18/ireland.abuse.fallout/index.html?hpt=T2

Those victims number in the thousands – possibly tens of thousands – three major investigations in the past five years suggest. The most recent, the Murphy Report, found the Archdiocese of Dublin and other Catholic Church authorities in Ireland covered up child abuse by priests from 1975 to 2004. Child sexual abuse was widespread then, the report found.

The prevalence of the problem, he says, suggests that there were “people who were aware that the best place to abuse children was under the cover of the church. What better cover could you hope for?”

 

[tweetymom]

This is true. But Catholics must be careful consumers of news. Because the media has made the Catholic Church their target. That’s unfair. Look at what they’re trying to do to Pope Benedict. The man has already said that he knew nothing about what happened at Regensburgh (sp?). The media keeps insinuating that Ratzinger, then, knew something and hid it. Journalists are not exempt from morality. It is one thing to report the truth and it is another to ruin people’s reputation and do character assaults. That is not the moral role of journalistm.

What is very obvious in Western journalism is that it is very cautious when it comes to Jews and Muslims. When it reports a story that happens among Jews or Mulsims it makes it a point to be very specific and very clear about who did what. It also makes it a point to separate the subject of their report from the religion. I mean that they do not attack Judaism or Islam. They go after the terrorist report or the bombings in Israel, etc. But they do not make Islam and Judaism look ridiculous. They do this only to Catholics. That’s wrong. This should not be done to anyone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Bro. I respect you and your oponion a great deal. But I have to disagree with you. Would the CC ever admited the wrongs that had been done if not caught? I seriously doubt it.