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Vatican 'Horrified' by Criticism from Germany ... Some even think the pope could resign
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fix
Guest
Yes, the state does have such authority and duty.
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tomarin
Guest
So you agree the Pope has done nothing wrong? Then we’re making progress.
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LISSETTE
Guest
It is in his weakest times that our Holy See would gain such strength, zeal and enthusiasm to press on from our God, Holy Trinity. Fear not! Pray!
God bless Lissette
God bless Lissette
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Kaninchen
Guest
It might appear that you are, at least.
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tomarin
Guest
If you don’t believe he did anything wrong then what possible justification is there for all the hysteria?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Have you perhaps noticed what the discussion has been about?
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pnewton
Guest
You perhaps have mistaken the Catholic Church for a democracy. Can you support this accountablity from Church teaching? Many good people in American government express the view that they work for the people and are accountable to the people. The church must be accountable to the people too and not just to Catholics but to all people since the church is in most every nation and inextricable from the society of every nation.
He is an American that is alleged to violate German law while in Sweden.
Do you feel obligated to obey Chinese law while in Australia?
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tomarin
Guest
Have you?
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Kaninchen
Guest
No, I’ve been holding all these conversations in my sleep as you’ve noticed.
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Contarini
Guest
Nonsense. No one has an obligation to act unjustly or to force another to act unjustly. And it would be unjust to exempt Bishop Williamson from the lifting of the excommunication based on ideas of his that had nothing to do with the original excommunication. This is simple and logical, and anyone with an ounce of rationality should be able to see this.
Here’s the root of the problem: modern society has turned against natural law, so they have no logical safeguards against horrifying immorality. Therefore, secular modern people have to resort to emotional tantrums in order to police the few moral taboos that remain. They can’t be rational about these issues, because they have deprived themselves of rational grounds for taking any moral stance at all.
All societies are prone to such tantrums when their core values are threatened, I admit. And at least no one is being burned at the stake–yet. But at least medieval people could give logical reasons for their intolerance. It seems that all modern secular people can do is scream “you can’t say that!”
Edwin
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Contarini
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Because the Church is of ultimate importance. The state isn’t.
And here’s the cruel irony–it was precisely an idolatrous attitude to the state that kept so many Christians from opposing Nazism as they should have done.
Edwin
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tomarin
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So true!
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LutheranDK
Guest
I believe that no church should have political power because it is a church.
However, I ALSO believe that members of a church has the right to speak their minds in relation to how society is to function. Or would you exclude some people from the right of influencing how a democratic society should be run? And if so - what are your criteria?
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survive
Guest
Bingo, bingo and bingo. You said it all.
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PJM
Guest
Friend,
My New years resolutition was to be Christian Chairtable in all my post this year, so I can’t reply to your comments.
God bless you and grant you enlightenment
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vs_trumpet
Guest
In the past the church claimed clergy exemption from prosecution and insisted on the right to try clergy in church courts, but what I was talking about was a man who has ALREADY done his time – he’s already been CONVICTED remember? – but upon serving all his time, he found a calling to the priesthood, has been exemplary in Christian sanctity for many years and the hiearchy wishes to appoint him to be bishop but the secular law of the land says that corporate office holders (the dioceses is a corporation in secular law) of that level must be free of felony convictions. We don’t have those laws at present, but the state would have every right to enact them and every right to apply them if it deems wise to all corporations and enforce it against those of both a religious orientation and non-religious orientation. For all we know, the fall out from this economic crisis might involve the enactment of laws of this kind.
Anyway, please answer the question now that I’ve clarified it for you.
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vs_trumpet
Guest
Good. And it has that moral authority and duty with regard to church and any other element of society and even if you think the Vatican has done nothing wrong here, even though many including Vatican officials have said they screwed up, you acknowledge this in the general.
And not just moral right and duty but on more practical things like public health. If for example, there’s a pandemic or the danger of one, and communion with the holy Wine could increase the threat to public health, the state has the authority to order the church to stop distributing communion that way even for priests who concelebrate. And if some virulence was known to be spreading through wheat products, then the state would have the authority in an abundance of caution to directly implement in swift and medically effective fashion, the destruction of even consecrated Bread of Life, and to seize all wheat products that the church possesses and to prohibit possession and production of wheat and wheat products. If that means the church would for a time have to bear without communion, that’s a sacrifice the church a responsible member of society must in obedience to civil authority make. If the threat is worldwide and so dangerous that world bodies in consultation determine that all wheat farms must be destroyed, then until the threat is entirely eradicated and scientists with confidence extract wheat seed from the “doomsday” seed vault (which contains seeds of all kinds), the church would have to in obedience to civil authority and international law and just as a responsible member of the human family bear with the temporary cessation of some religious practice.
Another area might be if the state gave a “national security letter” under recent law which would prevent a person from discussing a matter with anyone but his lawyer. According to Fox News’ “the Judge”, he would be prevented from discussing it even with his spouse or priest. So even if church practice might call him to mention the matter in confession, any mention of it would be in violation of this law of the land with grave legal consequences.
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vs_trumpet
Guest
I don’t want to veer off into those theological discussions, but we can look at how the church is evolving. Parishes have been required to have lay committees that approve of certain decisions like financial decisions. Bishops have been required to have committes of priests and laity that need to approve of certain large financial decisions. More recently, there have been lay review boards for dioceses and national churches to hold bishops accountable in matters related to sexual abuse. This is all in church law or formally authorized. In addition we have the pope being accountable to the human and Jewish community by changing the Good Friday prayer at their request recently. We also have the pope and Vatican being accountable to the call of world leaders, mostly Catholic world leaders, in Germany, the U.S., Canada, etc, as well as to the call of religious leaders, including from within the church – the pope and Vatican in the spirit of accountability tried to mend their mistakes. We have bishops and the pope meeting with Jewish leaders to ensure that the bishops of different dioceses and the pope know what is at stake and what the consequences would be. I believe the pope met with Jewish leaders just the other day. The bishop of Boston couldn’t pencil them in until a little later.
On German law, the German prosecutors are investigating and are asking the Swedish media for clarification. Williamson or his lawyer IIRC maintains that he told Swedish media to have the interview broadcast only in Sweden or at least not in German. I’m fuzzy on what went down and there’s a report that Williamson’s lawyer told the Swedish media to not upload it to the internet or something. Reports say Swedish media are disputing Williamson’s characterization of what happened. The German prosecutors will clear this up. I don’t think this German law is a good one, but people need to respect German law. Just as someone who from Mexico shuttles illicit drugs to America is acting against American law, the same applies here. The U.S. has in recent times tried to extradite people for doing things like that (not involving Mexico though in the case I remember)
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